Mad Kally

Tharmas,

Thank you for your post.

Kally (friend of Bill)

Lone Wolf

Let me just say that I have no criticisms of anyone in recovery, be it AA or other. My opinions are of AA and it's plainly published dogma - plus based on my personal experiences and those of many others I know personally. I founded and ran a support chat as a secular alternative to AlAnon for a year as well.

In any case, I'd like to get back to the reason I brought this up in the first place.

Another poster had made this comment to Radorth:
To which he replied:
Now, as if the reasoning there isn't silly enough... I knew those "facts" (which included no source) were rediculous.
Now, I'll agree to disagree on the 'cult' classification, but claiming that 78% OF less than 5% that allegedly credit Jesus for their recovery is one of the weakest arguments of proof I've heard yet! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Lone Wolf

Kally brown-nosing an Admin? Hell hath frozen over!

ksagnostic

I echo Mad Kally.

Thanks for posting Tharmas. My experience with AA is mostly as someone who attended open meetings where family was invited. Your descriptions, however, match the experience I had, and the experience that was reported to me by people I knew who were more deeply involved.

As for you Lone Wolf...
None of these definitions are descriptive of AA in my experience, or for that matter seem to be consistent with their literature. Furthermore, when someone makes an accusation that a movement or institution is a cult, I tend to think that definitions 3, 2 and 1 are, and in that order, the only relevant ones. That, plus there is also the implied accusation of mind control.

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: ksagnostic ]</p>

Lone Wolf

This subject seems to be pretty evenly divided as to opinion, especially with those having some sort of first hand experience. Could the reason for this be that each group has different philosophies? Maybe that's the case. I know my own experiences, including AlAnon and at least 6 open AA meetings (in 4 different groups/locations), were nothing short of attending some sort of Christian church service (though one was slightly more non-denominational). All but the AlAnon meeting were held in churches. When I contacted AA to find out if there were any groups who met in any place but a church - they told me there were none within a 2 hour drive of Chicago. The people I know personally who were involved in AA confirmed this (this was about 6 years ago - I don't know if that's changed).

I also observed what others have mentioned about the demeaning "worthless/repent/grovel" approach. I know of two people who left AA after several months. They both opted for professional counseling and treatment. After leaving AA, they were called by other group members for months - mostly insinuating that AA was the only way to stay sober and that they would never gain control of their lives (not to mention the "you'll make jebus sad" bit). Both have been sober for 4 and 7 years respectively, and don't consider themselves "alcoholics" anymore (as they would if they had stayed in AA).

In any case, if there are AA groups who don't shove the religious dogma down anyone's throat, and mostly provide cooperative support - I have less of a problem with that. However, you can't ignore the fact that many of these groups adhere to the religious fear tactics and follow the formula for creating a closed social environment for it's 'followers'. Even more important, AA's own statistics point to at least a 95% drop-out rate after just 1 year - and maybe 1% (if that) make it 20 years.

The fact is, there are many other treatment programs which are far more effective, covered by insurance, and guided by professionals that result in a healthy, happy person who doesn't need a lifetime of "support" or the power of an imaginary sky fairy to get on with their life.
No... even worse. They adhere to the notion that you simply can't be cured. Even if you haven't had a drink in 40 years - you're still an alcoholic. Yet another AA logic that defies reason!

ksagnostic

The only meetings where I felt a higher power, and even then not necessarily an Xian one, was emphasized to the point that I felt extremely uncomfortable was at the Al-Anon meetings, and even then, the same guy ran them. It is my understanding that AA groups do vary enormously from one to another. A group associated with a conservative church may indeed behave like the ones you referred to. But that is certainly not consistent with my experience. No call backs, no claims that their way is the only way.

1) Like Tharmas, I really question this use of "AA's own statistics" against them because it is difficult for me to imagine that a volunteer, very loosely run organization like AA has a way of gathering detailed information. Tharmas also indicated how the use of "drop out rates" can be misleading.

2) In my first post on this thread, I indicated that I had done a Pub Med search on AA and effectiveness. Most of the literature indicated that AA was effective in comparison with no-treatment, but not as effective as professional treatments (although many people in professional treatments were also involved in AA). The authors of one study I found did question AA's effectiveness. But certainly, the point is that there has been some actual work done on evaluating AA as a treatment approach.

3) Not everyone needs professional intervention to become sober. If a person can succeed through their own will and discipline with the help of a support group, more power to them. I would agree that professional services would be a more effective approach (with the cavaet that almost any nitwit with a degree in human services can call him/herself a professional counselor), for those who need that degree of intervention. There is nothing wrong, however, with using the least amount of interventon necessary.

4) For people who develop a physiological addiction to a substance, there is no cure, just avoidance of the substance. I don't think AA is defying logic and reason here.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: ksagnostic ]

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: ksagnostic ]</p>

sbaii

How does Secular Sobriety compare to AA? Could it be a viable alternative?

ksagnostic

Here's a link.

<a href="http://www.secularsobriety.org/" target="_blank">http://www.secularsobriety.org/</a>

Godless Dave

Lone Wolf, the one area where I agree with you is that Radorth's BS statistics are absolutely worthless in proving the existence of the Christian god or in asserting a positive social impact for Christianity.