Lone Wolf

This is a continuation of a topic (AA, statistics, and Jesus) that arose in this thread:

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000588&p=6" target="_blank">Radorth on the Synoptics, pg 6</a>

Thoughts?

ExTheist

Not only is AA a cult. It is as far as I know the only cult that the courts can force you to join. Very often when someone gets in trouble with a DUI or other substance issues, the person can be ordered by the court to join AA or some other worthless 12 step group.
I think what causes AA"s high rate of failure is the belif system that they preach. I can think of nothing more demoralizing than being told that you are powerless to make a choice to quit a substance.
Like the majority of people who stop drinking I just decided to quit. I set my confidence level at 100% and promised myself that I will never drink again, and that I will never change my mind. To those AA cultists who would say I am "white knuckleing it" or that I am a "dry drunk" I say make the most of it!
I question the idea of addiction as a disease.
Who ever heard of treating a disease by attending meetings for the rest of your life?
AA and the 12 step movement is a religion and like other religions it is in decline.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: ExTheist ]</p>

Lone Wolf

For those unfamiliar with the "12 steps", here they are:
And yet they claim they're "not religious, just spiritual".

seebs

I hate twelve-step programs; I think they're based on total nonsense, directly contradicting both Biblical teachings (which I think they ought to care about) and anything that could pass for science.

Just MHO.

Viti

I hate the phrase "character flaw"...if it is a disease, how can it be character driven? I also don't like the whole "powerless" vibe.Those steps make no sense to me.

I do however understand the benefit of talking with others who have similar experiences...the support may be the reason for successes rather than the steps

ksagnostic

I did a search on Pub Med, and from what I can tell, the literature is divided over the effectiveness of AA, with most indicating that AA appears to be effective in comparison with no treatment control groups, but at least one study questioned whether it was effective at all. I did not see anything that indicated that AA was more effective than other treatment approaches, and did see literature indicating that it was less effective in isolation in comparison more intrusive approaches (e.g., residential programs) for those who have severe addictions (although participation in 12-step programs often occured in conjuction with other treatment approaches).

AA proclaims itself to be a system, and sometimes its literature implies that it is a treatment approach, but it really seems to function as a support group that provides some framework for people to work through their addictions. To the extent that it provides a way to talk to other people who have gone through what a person who is alcoholic is going through, I think that AA can be an effective way to provide support for such a person. Someone who was very close to me was an alcoholic, and used AA as a support to achieving abstinence. When that goal was achieved over time, this individual decreased participation in AA, and eventually stopped going altogether, although stayed in personal contact with others in the program. I am quite grateful for this AA group, although it was this person's strength of character and determination that was the ultimate key in achieving abstinence. No "higher power", other than support from others, was needed.

There are things I definitely do not like about AA, particularly their emphasis on the necessity of a god or a higher power, but I do think that they have been helpful as a support group to a lot of people, and I do believe that support groups can be helpful as an adjunct to theraputic approaches, and in fact serve as a theraputic approach for those who are otherwise healthy. I also find the claim that AA is a "cult" to be absurd. The sheer variety of belief in people who participate, plus the voluntary nature of the participation for the vast majority of people who who are involved, are not consistent with a cult. No one who I have known who was involved in AA were routinely called by others involved, unless they were asked to be. They were not cajoled to provide money to AA, to cut off contact with family or friends, or for that matter cut off contact with people who don't agree with the 12-step approach.

That does not mean that I endorse AA for everyone, or that I think it is appropriate for judges to mandate participation in AA. It is a support group that offers the most for those who seek them out.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: ksagnostic ]

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: ksagnostic ]</p>

Lone Wolf

Here's some links explaining the cult aspects of AA:

<a href="http://www.rational.org/Cult.html" target="_blank">Alcoholics Anonymous: Of Course It's a Cult!</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/ageorange/orange-Cult_Called_AA.html" target="_blank">The Cult Called AA</a>

<a href="http://kenragge.addr.com/books/coc_index.php4" target="_blank">Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure? </a>

<a href="http://www.bee.net/cardigan/attic/guest09.htm" target="_blank">The Twelve Step Cult</a>

<a href="http://www.holdenpd.com/alcohol.html" target="_blank">Alcoholism: The Volitional Disease</a>

From the above link:
That alone is cause for concern (as in C/S seperation...)

As I mentioned in the other thread, I have some experience and done quite a bit of research on this topic. Someone close to me had a serious drinking problem, and I tried to do what I could to help. In the course of this, I attended an AlAnon meeting. This ranks up there with the most bizarre experiences in my life. From the get-go it was candles and prayers... the only thing missing was robes and eye of newt. Making it even worse, I was the only male there (amidst a dozen or so obviously abused middle aged women who'd already given in to the 'powerless' bit about being abused).

As for those I know who have been 'dry' because of AA, they admit they can't stay on the wagon without the group. Substitution of one addiction for another? I worked with a guy who had just hit his 20 year (I think he got a pin or something like Amway's Diamond level). He still did 3 times a week, and said if he ever missed even one he'd fall off the wagon.

I won't deny the benefits of group support, but when it becomes a replacement addiction - especially a religious one - then there's no real recovery.

ksagnostic

Lone Wolf:

I am extremely unimpressed with all of your links. They seemed to consist of opinion, and often uninformed opinion. Very little in the way of actual information, but a lot in the way of ideological grudges (and a variety of them at that, from anti-theism to anti-treatment programs to anti-anything that promotes the idea that alcoholism is a disease). Again, I do not claim that AA is a perfect or absolutely wonderful organization, being as it is, in the end, a support group with a ritual format, run by volunteers. The closest I have seen to cult behavior is the occasional claim by some individuals that you have to run every jot and title of the 12 step program to be successful, but for every person like that I have known several who take a more relaxed and nuanced view. I am NOT a fan of AA's sometimes relentless theism (although I have known several who have defined "god" pantheistically, or as a vague spiritual force, or as the force of "love" within a group of people), and I personally found Al Anon a complete waste of my time. But that in no way qualifies it as a cult.

Cutter

So what happens if a court orders an atheist (or other non-theist) to attend AA meetings? Can you refuse?

Lone Wolf

ksa,

cult:

1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator &lt;health cults&gt;
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

By these definitions, AA and it's 12 steps aren't cultish... how? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">