Theli

Have I understood this correct?
The priest must be a male because he is supposed to represent Jesus.
And you don't find this superficial?
Especially for religions that is focused on spirituality.

brighid

Amos,

Damn boy what kind of funky shit are you smoking?

If women are given the "power" (thank you for making my point) of priests they may become witches? What, with magical powers like those outlined in the Malleus Maleficarum? Are we then going to engage in sex with the devil because as women we are unable to distinguish between good and "evil" spirits? Is a penis a secret decoder wand and because we don't have them we are unable to discern good from evil? (If there WERE spirits! ) Or does possessing a vagina makes us mentally weak and prone to fits of hysteria thereby making women unfit to possess the great magical powers of the priesthood?

Really Amos, you need to be medicated and not with the medicinal herbs you seem to be smoking.

Please, don't respond as I don't seem to be able to understand your gibberish, as being a woman I seem to be missing certain mental faculties and that secret decoder wand thereby making your excuses seem like nothing more the shit!

Brighid

Walter_Mitty

Actually, I consider "sin" (and Christianity in general) to be like a peach pit that was stuck in my colon. After a heavy dose of laxatives (aka education), this too finally passed.

DMB

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Anunnaki

No kidding. I should have asked "What is the most important book BESIDES THE BIBLE a person could read to help understand Christianity as according to Amos?

So what is it Amos?

Bree

I can't believe I just read this!

To counter your rather middle-aged statement, Amos - let me remind you that on a CAT scan, my left and right hemispheres converge just fine, thank you very much. In fact, I have been the subject of study because my two hemispheres converge so well - my doctors are still trying to figure out if my left brain/right brain cooperation has anything to do with my synthesia (sp?). Does this make me a man?

Bonduca - I'm all for the menstrual hut idea .

brighid

There are many appropriate ways for the Church to acts, especially because punishment, confession, repentance and forgiveness are all parts of Catholic dogma, tradition and practice. First off the offending priests should be dealt with in ways that demonstrate the gravity of their sins and crimes against children. The long standing rule for breaking the vows of celibacy is excommunication. Why should this case be any different? These men should then admit their crimes, along with the men who were responsible for allowing these crimes to continue, instead of blaming the victim and deflecting responsibility to anyone or anything else including profound ignorance. Then the priests should have to repent not only to their God, Church and flock but specifically to their victims. They should then suffer the civil penalties for the crimes they committed and once they have accomplished ALL of these tasks and demonstrated some remorse they should be extended forgiveness by the Church and then if parishioners and victims wish, forgiveness from those people. Forgiveness of a sin does NOT absolve one of the responsibility for the consequences of ones actions. These men have demonstrated their inability to remain chaste and keep sacred vows and by defiling their “spirit” by raping and molesting boys and girls they should be seen as unclean in the eyes of the Church and thereby unable to perform sacred sacraments.

But to simply say – Oh, Father we forgive you and now back to your duties without so much as serving time for the CRIMES they committed is simply immoral and CRIMINAL! So forgive these men, but to absolve them of their duty to make amends and suffer the consequences for harming children is simply unconscionable.

Angels … please … I have certainly done no such thing! And magic bullet – what are you talking about? I have simply stated that there is no good reason to deny women membership into the priesthood because they possess the incorrect genitalia and that GENERALLY women possess qualities that seem to be those ones would want in a priest: caring, compassion, charity, fewer criminal tendencies, low rate of harming children, etc. in contrast to the pedophilic priests we are discussing and the Church hierarchy as it hypocritically applies “severe” punishments.

A PERSON should not be allowed to be a priest, or continue priestly duties for any number of reasons and only certain types of people are actually cut out for such work, regardless of gender. The issue of this thread questions whether or not Catholics view ordained woman as “worse” then pedophilic priests, etc. The swift and declarative actions of the Church to excommunicate women who have been ordained and strip them of not only their priestly duties but of membership to their community, and in the eye of the Catholic from a full relationship with God (and if one takes the efforts to become a priest it is safe to assume one cares about a relationship with the God more then the average person) AND their slow, and very weak actions taken against male priest who commit crimes against children AND break their vows of celibacy (which is an offense punishable by excommunication) but who are instead extended forgiveness and understanding. Actions speak louder then words and any one with an ounce of common sense is able to answer that question even without specific statements by the Church to the contrary.

Women are excommunicated and given the harshest of punishments by the Church for the crime of being female while performing the duties of a priest. Pedophilic priests and genocidal maniacs are extended forgiveness and treated with kit-gloves, but NOT excommunicated OR turned over to the proper civil authorities without public pressure. These men are allowed to continue with their priestly duties, remain members of the community and enjoy forgiveness, kindness and lifelong pay!

Outside of actual physical prowess, which does not seem to be a necessary feature when selecting priests, the qualities that make a good spiritual leader can be and are expressed by both genders. However, because boys and girls are reared differently, females generally demonstrate those qualities to a greater degree. This does not mean men, by design do not or cannot express those qualities. Just another reason why this discrimination should end!

Why can’t I forgive someone AND punish the offense? That is awfully backward. Punishment is not for my benefit, but for the benefit of the offender and the victim. Punishment should be an opportunity for an offender to learn from his/her mistake and it should be an opportunity for the victim to heal and understand that their pain and loss aren’t trivialized, and it should be payment for loss that cannot be made tangible. Forgiveness is for the benefit of the victim first, the community second and the offender third. Forgiveness allows one to heal and no longer be bond or further victimized by this criminal. It allows the community and opportunity for compassion and for the repentant and remorseful transgressor it is an opportunity to heal as well. But forgiveness without punishment or discipline is irresponsible. It teaches people that they can harm others without fear of suffering the consequences of their actions.

Why should these men be absolved of their responsibilities and the consequences?

Why should these men be absolved of their responsibilities and the consequences? These men are suppose to be the highest order of moral human beings. They should be setting the tone for right action, how one should act when they have deliberately or unintentionally harmed others, and how to accept the consequences of their actions. Instead what they are demonstrating is their careless disregard for other human life, that the abuse of children really isn’t serious enough to warrant punishment, and that forgiveness is a cop-out. Their God is a punishing God who has all sorts of rules and regulations for those who transgress the laws. These men took a solemn oath before this God and broke it in more ways then one. They should suffer the consequences with a modicum of humility and demonstrate that it’s NOT okay to harm others, and that the bad guys will be caught and punished.

If you were one of the victims, or if one of the victims were your child how would you want them to be dealt with?

B

Bible Humper

Actually, that Malleus Maleficarum has scared the living shit out of me. Look at the magic spells that catholic women priests could cast!


Keep the ladies away from the Catholic priesthood, they'll cast a spell to make us all dickless! Can you imagine this spell in the hands of the radical feminists?

Amos

Fair enough, a good beginning would be "The Surpreme Identity" by Allen Watts and from there go to all his writings.

Avoid New Age, Freud and Jung because they would confuse you (I think they're wrong).

The most detailed Divine Comedy is "WE" by Zamjatin and try other Romantic comedies or tragedies. Actually Titus Andronicus is super as a tragedy but much too difficult to grasp.

A good comparison is made between Coriolanus and MacBeth. Needless to say the Divine Comedy takes place in Rome and MacBeth takes place in England. In critical reviews these are classified as comparable with each other but the critics don't seem to understand the details between these two and why it is that Coriolanus is a comedy and MacBeth is the tragedy. This detail I can use to explain a question posed by SCoW (later tonight).

Good luck and truly the Surpreme Identity is a good book if you can understand it.

ManM

brighid,
But don't you see how hypocritical it would be the Church to act like you suggest? Crucify the sinner first, then forgive him? The Church teaches that people should turn the other cheek, etc... You are suggesting they hit back first, and then turn the other cheek? Forgive, but only after you punish? That is certainly not what the Church teaches. Dying painfully on the cross, Jesus forgave those who crucified Him. He didn't demand vengeance or anything else of that sort. How can Christians demand vengeance and not be hypocrites? Now that I've thought about it, this whole mess smacks of hypocrisy. The priests aren't acting much like Christians, and neither are the victims. The priests should be treated as Jesus treated sinners. The Church would be acting hypocritically if it treated them any other way.

Now I find absolutely nothing wrong with Jesus being physically represented by men all the time. There is no prohibition against women becoming holy. They can be spiritual mothers, saints, whatever. That is what really matters, right? But when it comes to physically representing Christ, they do just about as well as me physically representing Mother Theresa. So why not let the men be the corrupt priests and all the women put them to shame by their holiness? Things like this set off my very strong 'whiners annoy me' mentality.

I'm done with my little attempt to peer into the mind of a Catholic. Go right ahead with your tirades about the injustice of Catholic dogma. Just know that you will never have the chance to understand it unless you think through it and give them the benefit of the doubt for a change.