Freethought & Rationalism Archive

08-30-2002, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster:
Daemon,
There is a raging modern world out there and the church is content to protect child rapers who are one of their own.

That's the modern Church you now describe and has nothing to do with medieval theology.

During the Middle Ages, the rulers of the catholic church lived like kings and kept the irrational obscuritanistic theologies running over all thought and actions. The only group which smashed them for a while were the protestants of Martin Luther's Reformation, but they ended up creating an even worse theological prison for the human mind-fundamentalism. The catholics retrenched and to this day are retooling their medieval world. The retrenchment was called THe Counter-Reformation, and it is still running.

That obscurantist ideology was just evidence of their own human trancendence (don't forget here that our mandate is to obtain the mind of God and so they did). The fact that Luther made things even worse proves that he was wrong and that his followers will always be wrong.

Obscurantis ideology is only obscure to those in oblivion and the aim of the Church was not "a life of luxury" but the salvation of souls from their own human oppression. The Church encouraged the courageous while they were sinners and sought and found means and ways to redeem these extraordinary minds in the most extraordinary ways, I agree, which is necessary because for those "to whom much is given much is required."

There is no counter reformation going on right now but just an evaluation of the present state of affairs. Notice how the new Jesus is black and not white anymore.

Amos is a reminder of the type of theological thought which ran rampant in the Middle Ages. It is a cold reminder of what this religion is all about. If you think I am nailing Amos to the foundational muck of catholicism, then you would be thinking correctly.

Sullster, I am a peace maker and a lover who presents this view because it is real. If it ran rampant through the Middle Ages that would be to my credit because I did not get it from history books. I do have some of them but found them not worth reading (I would much rather have you tell me your version of it).

08-30-2002, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by daemon:
I think you've had a complete breakdown of coherency here.

Infallable means not able to fail and has nothing to do with sin because when you are beyond the conviction of the law it is impossible to be convicted of sin.

The Christian who has been set free from the Law cannot sin and it is for the liberation of Catholics from their own oppressive human-nature that the Church exist. Therefore, he who is in Christ cannot sin and is in charge of his own destiny. I think Augustine said something like "find rest in Christ and do what you want" to echo this sentiment.

So if Christians are free from sin why would the Church that invented this method of salvation not be infallable and in charge of its own destiny? Remember here that religion is man made to serve mankind as a means to the end and "the end of all our searching will be to arrive at the place we first started and know it for the first time."

Now Catholics may not understand this because they are sinners but the Church must be infallible to prove that heaven on earth is possible and each and every Church that does not claim to be infallible will not be a means to the end but be an end in itself, ie. you must die first to get anywhere.

daemon · 08-30-2002, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Amos: Infallable means not able to fail and has nothing to do with sin because when you are beyond the conviction of the law it is impossible to be convicted of sin.

However, that is the wrong sense of the word "infallible" as it relates to the RCC, which properly is:

Quote:

Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.

(from the American Heritage Dictionary)

Thus, no, the Catholic Church is not even infallible in the sense you have stated, according to their own doctrine.

Quote:

The Christian who has been set free from the Law cannot sin and it is for the liberation of Catholics from their own oppressive human-nature that the Church exist. Therefore, he who is in Christ cannot sin and is in charge of his own destiny. I think Augustine said something like "find rest in Christ and do what you want" to echo this sentiment.

My underpants teach me the secret songs of the turtles!

Quote:

So if Christians are free from sin why would the Church that invented this method of salvation not be infallable and in charge of its own destiny?

Because this isn't the reasoning you presented in the first place! You claimed it was infallible because they used the word.

Quote:

Remember here that religion is man made to serve mankind as a means to the end and "the end of all our searching will be to arrive at the place we first started and know it for the first time."

Wonderful.

Quote:

Now Catholics may not understand this because they are sinners but the Church must be infallible to prove that heaven on earth is possible and each and every Church that does not claim to be infallible will not be a means to the end but be an end in itself, ie. you must die first to get anywhere.

That's nice.

Anunnaki · 08-30-2002, 06:23 PM

Have you guys and gals who have been arguing down here with Amos been paying attention to the upper forums?

In <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000526&p=" target="_blank">this thread</a> Amos says:

Quote:

So what is wrong with pagan myths?

All religion is man made and if you can make them work for you there should be no objected to this.

Myths are presented for you to get on the inside of them.

And in response to some crap from Bede Amos later says:

Quote:

Tell your friend that Christian-ity is not a religion but a mental state of existence.

Religions are -ism and so your scholar flunked the first lesson to be learned in theology.

My personal favorite is from <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000512" target="_blank">Contemporary Christian Theologians Who Believe Christ a Myth </a> where Amos says:

Quote:

The fact that Christ was a myth makes it that much more real and believable but perhaps less understandable to the educated rational mind.

Myth is real and if a theologian does not understand this he failed to grasp the first lesson of theology.

You go with your bad self Amos! I have only a slight grasp on what you`re talking about,but it`s refreshing none the less.

08-31-2002, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is wrong with pagan myths?
All religion is man made and if you can make them work for you there should be no objected to this.

Myths are presented for you to get on the inside of them. 

Of course and that is why they are word stories
that use conventional words to describe a non conventional event or events. In here, the events are archetypal and therefore universal while the words are conventional and therefore local.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And in response to some crap from Bede Amos later says:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell your friend that Christian-ity is not a religion but a mental state of existence.
Religions are -ism and so your scholar flunked the first lesson to be learned in theology.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christianity is the end of religion.

My personal favorite is from Contemporary Christian Theologians Who Believe Christ a Myth where Amos says:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that Christ was a myth makes it that much more real and believable but perhaps less understandable to the educated rational mind.
Myth is real and if a theologian does not understand this he failed to grasp the first lesson of theology.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Myth is real because it describes a metaphysical event that is the cause for the transformation of our mind and body and religion is aimed to cause this transformation to happen.

08-31-2002, 05:47 AM

Religion is a means to the end and is very much like a tour that takes us from Alpha to Omega.

If we desire to go on this tour we must play by their rules because only they know how to get to the end of this tour. Just ask the rich man in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable wherein both ate and died but only one of them was burried (the inferred message here is that Lazarus did not die a physical death but that only his ego died).

sullster · 09-01-2002, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
Religion is a means to the end and is very much like a tour that takes us from Alpha to Omega.

If we desire to go on this tour we must play by their rules because only they know how to get to the end of this tour. Just ask the rich man in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable wherein both ate and died but only one of them was burried (the inferred message here is that Lazarus did not die a physical death but that only his ego died).

Ugh.Amos. I am starting to alter my vision of your ideas swimming in the currents of midevil catholic theology. They may not have burned you at the stake, but locked you in a basement of a monastery and made you copy Aristotle.

Daemon, excellent points made to me and to Amos.

09-01-2002, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster:


Ugh.Amos. I am starting to alter my vision of your ideas swimming in the currents of midevil catholic theology. They may not have burned you at the stake, but locked you in a basement of a monastery and made you copy Aristotle.

Hi sullster, you really don't have to change your opinion of my ideas because they are medieval to the core. The difference is that I do not speak like a preacher because I do not have a flock to herd while they did. In fact, they had to gather a flock and color their own heaven long before the members of their flock could go there.

By this I mean that the great minds of the Church's golden age (the various artists and cultural achievers) were no freaks of nature but the incarnate sons and daughters of their own culture (collective consciousness). They were the manifestation of Jesus' own words "you shall do greater things" (they were Gods chosen people in a new promised land), and I just can't see any reason why you should to tear them down for stepping on the odd conscientious objector. Shame on you.

Sorry I am rambling, and just wanted to tell you that I speak freely because the most damage I can do here is scatter some heretics and witches because unbelievers are untouchable.

Brahma's atheist · 09-02-2002, 09:59 AM

I don't know if this has been said but I remember someone said 'Jesus didn't have any female apostles so women should not be ordained but then none of the apostles were Polish.'

sullster · 09-02-2002, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brahma's atheist:
I don't know if this has been said but I remember someone said 'Jesus didn't have any female apostles so women should not be ordained but then none of the apostles were Polish.'

Good points indeed. None of the apostles were Italians and most all of the Popes were Italian.

Catholic theology can be so vast and analytical when it pronounces on equally vast moral and ethical areas but when you come to an issue like women priests, out comes the utterly simplistic bible statement. JC had no women apostles, thus the church can't have any women priests. END of argument and sit down.

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08-31-2002, 05:47 AM	#246
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Religion is a means to the end and is very much like a tour that takes us from Alpha to Omega. If we desire to go on this tour we must play by their rules because only they know how to get to the end of this tour. Just ask the rich man in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable wherein both ate and died but only one of them was burried (the inferred message here is that Lazarus did not die a physical death but that only his ego died).

09-02-2002, 09:59 AM	#249
Brahma's atheist Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: (not so) United Kingdom Posts: 514	I don't know if this has been said but I remember someone said 'Jesus didn't have any female apostles so women should not be ordained but then none of the apostles were Polish.'

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