rainbow walking

I want to play devil’s advocate here…

When I was a theist I was often accosted by atheists for my lack of empirical evidence for my claims of an existent god.

One of my replies, one that has never received an adequate answer, was:

It is a universal given that every individual human, when they read to themselves or are thinking about something in their minds are hearing a voice and carrying on a conversation with themselves internally. It is a phenomenon that carries the sensation of literally HEARING a voice or voices talking, verbalizing your thoughts. How do you know this is YOUR mind doing the talking? What empirical evidence do you have that can convince me that voice is yours? Since this is a universal phenomenon I’m not disputing its veracity but demonstrating that some things do exist for which you cannot empirically account for, nor deny…and they are closer than you might care to admit.

rainbow walking

Hell, let's make it a real challenge:

I'm one of 3 million individuals whose mind doesn't work this way. I neither HEAR nor think with an internal VOICE. Now, you the atheist, (that would be the person who does), have made a claim that you, and a host of others do. So how do you propose to PROVE your case? In other words, "put up or shut up!"

I have a website that denies the existence of this phenomenon and claims that anyone who experiences it is somehow mentally deficient because they can't prove it exists. YOU, (the atheist), have come to my forum to argue your case.

rainbow walking

Hell, let's take this one level deeper and make it really interesting:

The reason you have come to my forum is because you strongly believe that your method of thinking with this voice is superior to mine and will actually revolutionize humanty...only I, and the three million who don't think your way, need to be convinced to join you to make it happen.

Phanes

Between all three of those posts I'm not sure what the major question is, but I will offer my (admittedly lacking) opinions on the subject.

First, I don't think anyone "literally" hears a voice when they think. Strictly speaking, all hearing is really both internal (part of our private perceptions) and external (a real physical phenomenon [vibrations] that occurs outside of our mind). Since I'm fairly certain most people can tell the difference between hearing and thinking, I assume that thought does not actually seem like hearing. Just a bit of poetic metaphor, I guess. I do believe that people "think in words" though, so I'll answer the question (or one of them) with that in mind.


How do we know the thoughts we "hear" are ours?

This question is tricky if for no other reason than that the concepts involved are very abstract. But this is what I believe:

Thinking, the way we're talking about it, is a type of sensation. It is a subjective experience. Now think about this for a second - what do we mean when we say something is subjective? We mean something that exists as part of the mind. The mind and everything in it - including thoughts - is simply the entirety of our subjective experiences. So when I see the question above, I take it to mean something like "How do we know our mind is really ours?" This question is really rather nonsensical though. When I speak about "my mind," I am referring to the sensations, perceptions, feelings, thoughts, and so forth that I am distinctly and directly aware of. I am not referring to anything that may or may not exist independently of these subjective phenomena. What constitutes my mind is, by definition I think, the sum total of these things. What I feel and think is my mind. It doesn't make sense to talk about it any other way.

Now what may be a problem is whether I am correct or not in associating these subjective experiences with a particular objective reality, e.g. How do I know this body is the source of my mind? Here I think we can rely on simple observations and inductive reasoning. When I poke this particular body, my mind registers something I call pain. When I poke that particular body, my mind does not register any pain. Likewise with pleasure and all the other sensations we can have. After a while we start to extend our "ownership" of given feelings to a given body that seems to be responsible for many of them. It may be that my mind is actually stored in some computer or crystal somewhere, but (assuming we really can trust any experience at all), it seems pretty clear that "me" (i.e. my mind) is intimately related with some physical thing (i.e. my body), so I can call them both "me." Of course we might drop "body" in favor of just "brain."

Having said all that, the other question I see (How do we doubters know that you or anyone else really thinks in words?) is pretty easy to answer. What I think most certainly does exist: as a subjective experience, or part of my mind. There is no intelligible way to doubt such a statement. Now you may doubt that I mean the same thing as you by "thought" or "words," but you most certainly cannot doubt that I think something (which I will decide to call thoughts), and that this something occurs in some given form (which I will call words). I could be lying too, but I assume that isn't what you had in mind.

You could legitimately doubt that my thoughts - as a subjective experience - come from some particular objective thing. Depending on the thought, I might be able to show you that they do come from something objective, like my body. Or I could claim they come from some spiritual being up in the sky, in which case I would need to get working on finding some evidence.


Anyway, this is what I think. I apologize for any vagueness and especially for the unclearness of some points.

Vicar Philip

Rainbow,

So you're saying that when you read something, you DON'T "speak" the words in your head as you read? I hadn't really thought about it until I read your post. I certainly vocalize the words I read or write in my head.

So when you read, what is going on in your mind? What are you thinking? I can't help but "say" the words I write. Even now, I'm saying these words in my head. How odd that I never noticed this until now.

It can't be proven. I suppose if man ever builds a brain-wave monitor with enough resolution to pick out specific thoughts, we might be able to show a difference between two individuals, but I don't believe we currently have that capability.

I also noticed that my silent vocalization is entirely free from my occasional habit to slightly stutter. I don't do it often, but when I do my wife jokingly picks on me. How wonderful that in my little ol' brain I'm free from it! Ah, the perfect world.

Interesting topic.

rainbow walking

First, I don't think anyone "literally" hears a voice when they think.


I do...but then, for the purposes of this exorcise we're suppose to respond as if I don't. I think you do too but you are trying to define it on the basis of external sense perception. It appears identical to external hearing does it not?




Strictly speaking, all hearing is really both internal (part of our private perceptions) and external (a real physical phenomenon [vibrations] that occurs outside of our mind).


Are you sure? Then how do you explain the sensation of thinking in verbal fashion? You are saying something to yourself and you are hearing it. There's no other way to describe it, except you realize, (and hope like hell), that you are the only one hearing it.

Since I'm fairly certain most people can tell the difference between hearing and thinking, I assume that thought does not actually seem like hearing.


It does to me.

Just a bit of poetic metaphor, I guess. I do believe that people "think in words" though, so I'll answer the question (or one of them) with that in mind.

Yes, I'm fairly certain it is a universal human trait.


How do we know the thoughts we "hear" are ours?

Actually that's not the real thrust of this exorcise. For the sake of argument, (and to show the correlation between the theists claims by putting you in their shoes, so to speak), you must convince me, a person who does not think in this fashion or has ever experienced these sensations of talking to myself inside my head, that your experience with this phenomenon is more than just a figment of your imagination or a mental deficiency.

Having said all that, the other question I see (How do we doubters know that you or anyone else really thinks in words?) is pretty easy to answer. What I think most certainly does exist: as a subjective experience, or part of my mind.


Well, I don't believe you. Can you prove it?


There is no intelligible way to doubt such a statement. Now you may doubt that I mean the same thing as you by "thought" or "words," but you most certainly cannot doubt that I think something (which I will decide to call thoughts), and that this something occurs in some given form (which I will call words). I could be lying too, but I assume that isn't what you had in mind.

The question is not whether you think but the phenomenon by which you claim to be experiencing this thinking process. You say you form words and "hear" them as an integral part of your thinking process. Well, myself, and three million others do not, and we seriously doubt that you do. All you've made thus far are unsupported assertions.

You could legitimately doubt that my thoughts - as a subjective experience - come from some particular objective thing. Depending on the thought, I might be able to show you that they do come from something objective, like my body. Or I could claim they come from some spiritual being up in the sky, in which case I would need to get working on finding some evidence.

Again, this is not a question of where your thoughts originate but how they are expressed to you within your mind. You say you don't literally hear a voice yet you admit to thinking in the verbal style which definitely inculcates the "hearing" process. Now, do you hear something pronouncing words in your mind or do you not? And if you do, prove it!

wordsmyth

Talking to yourself is a sign of impending mental collapse. (frobozz, anyone?)

rainbow walking

Hi VP,
So you're saying that when you read something, you DON'T "speak" the words in your head as you read?


Well, actually I do, and so does everyone else. But the purpose of this exorcise is to treat me as if I don't and convince me that what you are experiencing is real. It puts you, more or less, on the same footing with the theist. Here you are admitting to an experience you can't deny, yet can't prove...and knowing without a doubt that it is a genuine experience, yet unable to empirically verify it in any way, shape or form.

I hadn't really thought about it until I read your post. I certainly vocalize the words I read or write in my head.

So when you read, what is going on in your mind? What are you thinking? I can't help but "say" the words I write. Even now, I'm saying these words in my head. How odd that I never noticed this until now.

It can't be proven.

Ahhh...but then, neither can god. Yet you can't deny the phenomenon and your experience of it.

I suppose if man ever builds a brain-wave monitor with enough resolution to pick out specific thoughts, we might be able to show a difference between two individuals, but I don't believe we currently have that capability.

Well, at least that's an honest admission and the semblance of a possible way to verify it at some later date...yes?

I also noticed that my silent vocalization is entirely free from my occasional habit to slightly stutter. I don't do it often, but when I do my wife jokingly picks on me. How wonderful that in my little ol' brain I'm free from it! Ah, the perfect world.

Hmmm...curious that.

Interesting topic.

I agree.

Phanes

Sorry, but I don't think you do. Are you sure you mean to say you "literally" hear a voice, or are you misusing the term? (I've noticed a lot of people do that with "literally"). I can think all sorts of things in my mind - sights, smells, sounds, tastes. I am not literally seeing, smelling, hearing, or tasting any of them.

I am basing it on the external sense because that is what hearing is. And no, they do not appear identical. If they were really identical, there would be no way to tell them apart. Ask someone to say the word "cow" for you. Now think the word to yourself. Can you tell the difference between when you're thinking it and when you're hearing it? If the answer is yes, then the two obviously do not seem identical. If no, then you need to contact a psychologist for your problem.

Again, thinking is not the same thing as hearing. I can quite easily tell the two apart, and so, I suspect, can you. If you're asking me why people often think in words, I'm not sure. I would guess it has something to do with the way we organize our thoughts into groups of related ideas, with particular words being put into this group or that group through our experience.

Now it may well be that other people or minds are "hearing" our thoughts, but that was not your original question. You originally asked how we know our thoughts are in facts ours - a concept which does not make sense. If, however, some psychic on Mars is "reading" my thoughts, then it's up to him/her/it to demonstrate this ability. Burden of proof and all that.


Again, if you are going to allow any experience at all to count, then this explanation should be fine. The only authority on any subjective experience is the person who is having that experience. If I think I am happy, I am happy. If I think I am thinking, I am thinking. There is no more accurate information than that. The only way you could possibly doubt such an explanation - as I already pointed out - would be to 1) think I am lying, 2) think I do not mean the terms the way you mean them, or 3) doubt any sense/experience whatsoever, except possibly your own. I was under the impression that you did not intend this as a rehashing of the old solipsist and nihilist dilemmas, so I treated the issue as if you would be willing to accept at least some experience. If you are willing to, then the explanation thus far stands on its own just fine.

As above, you are attempting to doubt something that is entirely subjective. That does not make sense unless you want to doubt every experience period. Would you believe someone who says he is happy? If yes, then either you need to find a difference between that subjective experience and this one (thinking in words), or admit that you accept them both.

Why do you assume thinking in words means hearing? Why is that any more audible than visual in nature? I can see words just as well as I can hear them. If I knew braille, I could also feel words. Maybe one day we'll even have a language of smells. As far as I can tell, you've arbitrarily labeled thought "hearing" because you associate words with sound.

I most certainly do not "hear" anything "pronouncing" anything in my mind.

braces_for_impact

This is a very interesting topic and I admit I have to think about this one as it is usually one of those things that we take for granted. But I will agree with Phanes on a few issues because I believe that coming together on a few definitions might help us get closer to an answer on this issue.

I do NOT hear thoughts in my head when thinking, typing, spelling,etc. I do "verbalize" words in my head when I am doing activities like these, but I am not hearing them. It seems to me to have something to do with symbology. We think with language. There are a few ways to demonstrate this that I can think of off the top of my head.

Ever notice when you think the "voice" in your head is always the same volume? You may even make it able to "sound" differently in your own head, but it is still the same volume. (Go ahead try it, you know you want to )

Ever been to a concert or similar place where there is constant loud noise? Yet you can still "hear" yourself think can't you? We've all heard the expression "It's so loud I can't hear myself think." It seems to me like that doesn't really happen or you wouldn't be able to formulate the phrase itself.

Ever come into sudden pain? If you put your hand on a hot stove and it burns, you don't think 'remove your hand it burns'. You just do it, and fast. It's automatic (autonomic). You may "hear" the voice in your head immediately afterwards saying "Crap that hurt!" But you removed your hand before you were able to verbalize thoughts in your brain. So it seems we don't verbalize in our heads for everything.

So thusly we can at least prove that the "voice" in our head is NOT tied to physical vibrations of the likes with which we hear with our ears.

Now, please remember, this isn't a proof to you of the voices I hear in my head, but I think it helps narrow things down to so we can make further progress.

This reminds me of synthnasia ( I believe it's called.) These people associate color with the symbolism in words. Thus the word 'hello' may sound 'yellow' to a person of this condition. When this condition was first discovered it was thought to be a psychological problem. They have verified it as something else all together now. I think maybe some research into this condition and how they proved it actually exists might help your thought experiment.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

Edited for spelling.