Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Egoinos · 08-08-2002, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:
Φυσιολατρος απιστος

What does "pusiolatros apistos" mean?

BTW, Idolatry is just worshipping a god that another religion doesn't accept as a god.

ansarthemystic · 08-08-2002, 06:23 AM

Theists are notoriously very bad when it comes to explanations for our beliefs!

But as far as idolatry being wrong, all the usual reasons such it is the worship of creation is true, just not an acceptable explanation to most.The idea that theists or God are jealous of the worship of other gods is wrong and a totally christian idea.(BTW) the idea that all Abrahamic faiths are Western is false!.

To the muslim nothing should be worshipped but god, and nothing will benefit you but the worship of god. Worshipping something that is not god is like worshipping nothing(provided you believe in god to begin with)

And as far as worship goes(FOR THOSE WHO DON"T WORSHIP), our definition of worship is an action that is good in itself, not groveling on your knees, not begging the Invisible Sky Person to change its mind,etc...hope that helps

peace and blessings

MollyMac · 08-08-2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Egoinos

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:
Φυσιολατρς απιστος
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does "pusiolatros apistos" mean?

apistos = unbelieving (or heathen?) physiolatris = nature lover (or worshipper?)

sullster · 08-08-2002, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:


You can say that about, for instance, composing music or painting pictures, indeed about anything. I trust you don't believe in an afterlife; therefore, most such activities are ultimately emotion expended on nothingness. That's irrational too. The fully rational life is that of eating, drinking and having children alone. Animals apart from us lead fully rational lives.

(edited for faulty tags)

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Heathen Dawn ]

Heathen Dawn,
Thanks for your replies.
You are a true believer in universal rationality I see. You would be welcomed by the Philosophes during the French Enlightenment of the mid-1700's. Rationality replacing the irrational dieties of antiquity and thus human society would be become one with the rational ordered universe. Rousseau comes to mind. Man must return to the purity of nature and reject his irrational institutions and beliefs.

Well, I too love the Enlightenment. They broke new ground and their praising of reason over irreason was great and admirable. But they were dead wrong about human nature and were romantic dreamers.

Nature is not rational in any sense of human meaning. Animals do not make rational choices but are the products of blind evolutionary successes.

Human beings are raging messes of irrationality. Evolution has given us a brain which is capable of making us kill others in a second. We live in dream worlds which religion is an organized manifestation. Reason is a tool which we can pick up and use or throw away.

Worshipping nature is just as much a dead end as worshipping a mythical man from the Bronze Age of the Middle East. The act of worship itself is utterly irrational, though a very natural human act, it should not be pursued by one who is aware of human nature.

As for nothingness, well, we do live in an utterly meaningless universe and everything is really nothing ultimately. You and I will be dust long before the end of the 21st century. It is irrational not to accept that everything is nothingness. Nihil.

Heathen Dawn · 08-08-2002, 10:49 PM

"Physiolatros apistos" = infidel nature-worshipper.

sullster, I didn't say nature-worship was rational, in fact quite the opposite. My point is this: according to evolution, which we both hold as true, we are nothing but vessels for gene survival (Dawkins easily comes to mind here). Rationally, that is, in accordance to the purpose of gene survival, the only sound actions of any living creature are eating, drinking and sex. All the rest are no help as to gene survival and therefore irrational.

Consequently, when you say nature worship is irrational, I 100% agree with you. Only that I add: so are most activities. Recognizing that "all is vapour" (in the words of Ecclesiastes), it is irrational to compose a song or paint a picture, knowing that one day you will cease enjoying it or seeing anyone else enjoying it. The reason why we do this is that the fully rational life is dull, sterile, desperation inducing and outright depressing. The brain of human beings has evolved such that the rational activities of gene survival are no longer sufficient to us.

abe smith · 08-09-2002, 06:07 AM

The "God[s]" which {sic; not "whom"} our various fellow-humanbeings worship = idolize are HUMAN FICTIONS = artefacts >>>>> idols. It appears that for some/many Catholics [including conspicuously many hierarchs, whose primary motivation seems to be "Preserve the CHURCH at all costs! no matter what other values must be sacrificed."}, the CHURCH, that human artifact, is an idol. Consider for example Bishops's, Cardinals's, and Popes's [SOME, not all] longtime practise, of personifying "The Church", of never admitting the "She" has ever taught falsehoods nor ever been wrong about anything; and of hiding, including LYING about, all "Her" evil-doings...

sullster · 08-09-2002, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:
"Physiolatros apistos" = infidel nature-worshipper.

My point is this: according to evolution, which we both hold as true, we are nothing but vessels for gene survival (Dawkins easily comes to mind here). Rationally, that is, in accordance to the purpose of gene survival, the only sound actions of any living creature are eating, drinking and sex. All the rest are no help as to gene survival and therefore irrational.

I agree with you that we are on the same page here on this issue, yet your definition of rationality troubles me in regards to the operations of natural selection. Rationality to me is a human invention and does not exist outside of the human brain. No creature on the planet is making a rational decision when they eat, drink or reproduce. The impulses for these acts are utterly devoid of choice. Rationality to me is not a force in nature, but is something chosen as a tool by the human brain.

How much rationality is involved in human eating, drinking and sex? A lot less than we would like to admit. We think we are choosing, and that is a human trait not shared with animals.

Consequently, when you say nature worship is irrational, I 100% agree with you. Only that I add: so are most activities. Recognizing that "all is vapour" (in the words of Ecclesiastes), it is irrational to compose a song or paint a picture, knowing that one day you will cease enjoying it or seeing anyone else enjoying it. The reason why we do this is that the fully rational life is dull, sterile, desperation inducing and outright depressing. The brain of human beings has evolved such that the rational activities of gene survival are no longer sufficient to us.

As previously stated, I do not agree that gene survival has anything to do with rationality, as I see the term defined.

It may surprise you, after my savage critique of rationality and extolling of nihilism in my previous posting, to hear me say that I disagree that the pursuit of rationality leads to a life of sterility and dullness. The reasoned out knowledge of our finite lives and limited capacities can make us appreciate our lives more. Once we see the utter nothingness of life, we can decide to do something interesting rather than slide into the pits of irrational consolations which abound around us.

Don't worry, the genes will take care of themselves. Notice that the human population is continuing to rise in numbers.

Heathen Dawn · 08-10-2002, 03:53 AM

Rationality isn't the be-all and end-all of life. It doesn't even appeal to everyone. It's enough for some people, but not enough for others.

Coming back to the topic: as a nature-worshipper I find myself flanked from both sides of the belief spectrum, with comments making me feel I'm doing something wrong. On the one hand, theists tell me it's wrong because it's idolatry (worshipping the creation), and on the other, atheists (like sullster) tell me it's an irrational waste of time ("emotion expended on nothingness").

Why is idolatry wrong? If you say that it is because of worshipping the creation instead of the creator, then I reply: first, I don't believe the creation and creator are separate entities, and second, I'm not entitled to worship a creator ipso facto that he is creator any more than I'm entitled to honour my parents just because they f*ed each other.

If you say idolatry is a waste of time, then I reply: everything is a waste of time, if you think about it seriously. You won't take anything with you, so it makes sense that each person is allowed to waste his time in his own way.

---

It is customary among Hindus meeting to ask each other which gods they worship. The prospect of having to say, "no, I don't worship anything" is depressing to me. I'd much rather say, "Nature is my God and Goddess". For me, biological evolution is a sacred Genesis story as well as scientific fact.

Waning Moon Conrad · 08-10-2002, 07:23 AM

Idolatry is wrong because the Abrahamic God is jealous.

If the Abrahamic God is jealous, then he is less than divine.

To worship something less than divine is idolatry.

Therefore, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are idolatry.

Therefore Judaism, Christianity and Islam are completely wrong!

ansarthemystic · 08-12-2002, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Waning Moon Conrad:
Idolatry is wrong because the Abrahamic God is jealous.

If the Abrahamic God is jealous, then he is less than divine.

To worship something less than divine is idolatry.

Therefore, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are idolatry.

Therefore Judaism, Christianity and Islam are completely wrong!

All of your presuppositions and premises here are wrong. The Islamic god is not jealous.

peace and blessings

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: ansarthemystic ]

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08-08-2002, 06:23 AM	#12
ansarthemystic Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: FLORIDA Posts: 155	Theists are notoriously very bad when it comes to explanations for our beliefs! But as far as idolatry being wrong, all the usual reasons such it is the worship of creation is true, just not an acceptable explanation to most.The idea that theists or God are jealous of the worship of other gods is wrong and a totally christian idea.(BTW) the idea that all Abrahamic faiths are Western is false!. To the muslim nothing should be worshipped but god, and nothing will benefit you but the worship of god. Worshipping something that is not god is like worshipping nothing(provided you believe in god to begin with) And as far as worship goes(FOR THOSE WHO DON"T WORSHIP), our definition of worship is an action that is good in itself, not groveling on your knees, not begging the Invisible Sky Person to change its mind,etc...hope that helps peace and blessings

08-08-2002, 10:49 PM	#15
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	"Physiolatros apistos" = infidel nature-worshipper. sullster, I didn't say nature-worship was rational, in fact quite the opposite. My point is this: according to evolution, which we both hold as true, we are nothing but vessels for gene survival (Dawkins easily comes to mind here). Rationally, that is, in accordance to the purpose of gene survival, the only sound actions of any living creature are eating, drinking and sex. All the rest are no help as to gene survival and therefore irrational. Consequently, when you say nature worship is irrational, I 100% agree with you. Only that I add: so are most activities. Recognizing that "all is vapour" (in the words of Ecclesiastes), it is irrational to compose a song or paint a picture, knowing that one day you will cease enjoying it or seeing anyone else enjoying it. The reason why we do this is that the fully rational life is dull, sterile, desperation inducing and outright depressing. The brain of human beings has evolved such that the rational activities of gene survival are no longer sufficient to us.

08-09-2002, 06:07 AM	#16
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	The "God[s]" which {sic; not "whom"} our various fellow-humanbeings worship = idolize are HUMAN FICTIONS = artefacts >>>>> idols. It appears that for some/many Catholics [including conspicuously many hierarchs, whose primary motivation seems to be "Preserve the CHURCH at all costs! no matter what other values must be sacrificed."}, the CHURCH, that human artifact, is an idol. Consider for example Bishops's, Cardinals's, and Popes's [SOME, not all] longtime practise, of personifying "The Church", of never admitting the "She" has ever taught falsehoods nor ever been wrong about anything; and of hiding, including LYING about, all "Her" evil-doings...

08-10-2002, 03:53 AM	#18
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	Rationality isn't the be-all and end-all of life. It doesn't even appeal to everyone. It's enough for some people, but not enough for others. Coming back to the topic: as a nature-worshipper I find myself flanked from both sides of the belief spectrum, with comments making me feel I'm doing something wrong. On the one hand, theists tell me it's wrong because it's idolatry (worshipping the creation), and on the other, atheists (like sullster) tell me it's an irrational waste of time ("emotion expended on nothingness"). Why is idolatry wrong? If you say that it is because of worshipping the creation instead of the creator, then I reply: first, I don't believe the creation and creator are separate entities, and second, I'm not entitled to worship a creator ipso facto that he is creator any more than I'm entitled to honour my parents just because they fed each other. If you say idolatry is a waste of time, then I reply: everything* is a waste of time, if you think about it seriously. You won't take anything with you, so it makes sense that each person is allowed to waste his time in his own way. --- It is customary among Hindus meeting to ask each other which gods they worship. The prospect of having to say, "no, I don't worship anything" is depressing to me. I'd much rather say, "Nature is my God and Goddess". For me, biological evolution is a sacred Genesis story as well as scientific fact.

08-10-2002, 07:23 AM	#19
Waning Moon Conrad Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Victoria. Australia Posts: 1,417	Idolatry is wrong because the Abrahamic God is jealous. If the Abrahamic God is jealous, then he is less than divine. To worship something less than divine is idolatry. Therefore, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are idolatry. Therefore Judaism, Christianity and Islam are completely wrong!

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