ax

HELL: A place where the most unimaginable suffering goes on for all eternity with no second chance of repentence EVER is given. A place where all the vile sinners who simply didn't accept a dinner invitation suffer. But hey, they deserve it right?
HEAVEN: A place where you cannot sin. Where all shall be given a new mind incapable of choosing sin and everyone will do good to one another all the time.(although to really appreciate it you'd think you'd need the contrast of the choice of doing harm).
REALITY: We as humans are unsure of death so we invent something to take care of it for us.

Jobar

K, Amos here is our Theist Dadaist, a Discordian-Catholic.

And this-

"Some humans are more rational while others are more non-rational but to the same extent one is less rational is one more non-rational. This goes both ways because our actions will always be the result of reason and non-reasom while the outcome may appear rational or irrational but never non-rational because the volition was engaged to perform the act."

-is classic Amos. Read it for its meaning only after you have deciphered "Jabberwocky".

Added: Hail Mary! Hail Eris!

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Jobar ]</p>

Jobar

Seriously, let me try to condense this argument.

-Earthly suffering is necessary to allow for free will.

-Free will exists in Heaven, where there is no suffering.

This blows the free-will argument out of the water in one shot, looks like to me.

K

Jobar:

Do you know where I could purchaes an Amosese to English dictionary?

You summed up the argument well, but when I proposed that to luvluv, he replied that he believed that there were both free will and suffering in heaven - just different than on earth. I was hoping to get an accurate description of heaven and hell to see if they could possibly consistent with an omnipotent - omnibenevolent god who allowed suffering on earth for the sake of free will.

primemover

Hello,

I am not certain that the claim "Earthly suffering is necessary to allow for free will" is valid. Free will is merely the ability to freely choose between two or more options. Free will could exist with little or no suffering.

Free will is independent of suffering. I mean, Free will can cause or decrease suffering, but suffering has no effect on the existence of free will.

I would agree that humans lack good information or ability to decipher that info, which hampers free will. However, people are still are able to discern between options and make choices.

"Free will exists in Heaven, where there is no suffering." If you assume that the Christian God exists and grants humans free will, why would you assume that He would take that free will in Heaven. In Heaven, from my point of view, we will have greater knowledge of what our choices are and hopefully will make better choices.

nelsondogg

Considering human nature, how could heaven be much different from earth in regards to the way people treat each other? Won't people still be jealous, rude, or spiteful towards each other? Or will god somehow remove those qualities from people when they enter. If so, wont the me in heaven not really be me since I've been altered in such a significant way? Or will people just not interact with one another? But that would suck because people look forward to spending eternity with their loved ones so why would god take that away.

The whole concept of heaven doesn't make much sense.

case

If this be the case, then god must have a personality akin to the Riddler. Why not lay out all information for us to make decesions? Why just bits and pieces. Surely if god made us, then he can grant us the capacity to be able to understand all the consequences of our actions. Why not give us that ability along with free will? One could argue that by not doing so, it really isn't free will. Not by any meaningful definition of the term.

Assuming that god gave us free will, but didn't give us the ability to understand the consequences of our choices is a bit like saying that we are able to see, but what we see isn't really there. Our vision becomes more of a hinderance then a benificial function. We may as well not be able to see.

primemover

I get a kick out of this. Case wrote this response about 10 feet away from me.

I am sure that my response to this would sound like jiberish to someone who does not believe in God to begin with. The reason most Christians get blasted here is because they attempt to use rules that are appropriate in religon but not for logic, science, or philosophy.

Not to get to far off topic, I would have to say that humans have free will, but it less adequate than will be available in Heaven. Our knowledge is kind of like my wife's ultrasound. It is not a good picture, but we can see some things about my wife's baby. The picture is not perfect but we can determine it was a boy (or at least we think). Our choice may not be based on perfect info, but we understand some of the basics anyway.

primemover

K

primemover:

If God is capable of creating a world without suffering (as in Heaven), how can he be omnibenevolent and still allow suffering here on earth?

Amos

Because God is not present in earth but is in heaven only. Heaven and earth are oposites created in our mythology to distinguish between good and evil (see Gen.1).

Omnibenevolence can only be conceived to exist in a world where there is evil because there is no omnibenevolence in heaven. That is, there is just benevolence in heaven because there is no pain or suffering in heaven.

The same with heaven, heaven cannot be conceived to exist in heaven because there is no earth in heaven.

So it is only from oblivion that we can see onmibenvolence and this only because our souls have sight of this benevolent sea.

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>