K

This tapic is a branch off of a discussion on the Problem of Pain. Do Heaven and Hell exist? Is there free will in Heaven? If suffering is a result of free will, is there suffering in heaven? There are many more questions, but this should be enough to get things started.

Aerik Von

Hell = fire and torture?

Heaven = paradise of all desires fufilled?

This seems to be the basic idea of what I have been told over the past 22 years.

That and that God is coming to cast all the vile unbelievers to the fire...

primemover

Most certainly, but do expect me to prove it. If you do not want to believe that is your choice.


This is an interesting question. I would say yes. God has given many beings free will. To me that is one way we are created in his image. According to scripture, God cast Satan from Heaven. It is said that this was done due to the devil's defiance of God. The difference between Heaven and Earth is that we humans are less knowledgeable about the nature of God. We will see God's true nature in Heaven. If at that point you choose to deny or refuse God you could still choose to leave him. Most would not likely make that choice.

Suffering is a result of many things; free will is one possibility. However, free will can also relieve suffering. I can choose to think about how others treat me differently and not be offended when a student (I am a school counselor) makes personal attacks against me. Thus I have made a decision that has reduced my personal suffering.

Suffering is not a quantity that can be judged easily by others. Suffering is a state of mind that can be changed or relieved by changing expectations, thoughts, beliefs, etc. Physical pain is not entirely equivalent to suffering, but even pain can be tolerated by some extremely well. I had a philosophy Prof. that never used any pain meds, even at the dentist. Therefore, when we come to know the nature of the world and our God we will see things in a different light that will allow us not to experience suffering in the manner we currently do.

K

The reason this topic came up was in a discussion with luvluv. He asserted that an omnipotent - omnibenevolent being can allow all the suffering in the world because he can not lessen it without destroying free will. The obvious question from there is, "is there free will in heaven, and if so, does that mean that there is also suffering?" luvluv suggested I start a new topic about the properties of heaven and hell. That's why this is here.

I'm not asking anyone to prove that heaven and hell exist. I'm just trying to see if the ideas are consistent with an omnipotent - omnibenevolent being who allows suffering here on earth.

Aerik Von

"Surely there is a heaven and hell"...

Well, you haven't really backed up these claims with facts and if there is free will in heaven and heaven is "perfect", where would this free will come into play?

It seems illogical that heaven could exist as it would have to have pain for us to notice how grand it is.

Theli

A good question here would be: Then, why is fulfilling ones desires often sin on earth?
The heaven and hell concept is so transparent and fabricated that one can't help finding holes in it.

Amos

My take on Free Will, Determinism and free will.

Free Will is the condition in which we are not divided in our own mind. The Freeman has Free Will because his conscious mind has been placed subservient to his subconscious mind and so this man goes by intuition. Some call it heaven, nirvana, or knowledge fo the Ultimate Form.

He can go by intuition because when he looks at things he does not see them with a specific image in mind but perceives them with the eye of his soul in which the specific image is already filtered through the wholistic perspective. This is why this is called the omniscient perspective and so he has noetic vision.

From this he alone can see the deterministic condition of humans who are driven by their own ego identity in which the conscious mind is the prevailing motivator behind his actions. The aim here is to enhance the person's status with attributes such as power wealth and beauty. He is motivated by desire to enhance his status because he is alienated from his own true idenity.

The idea of free will is presented to humans because regardless of who actually pulls the strings behind the motivation of humans, in the end it is the total person who must be held accountable because both his ego and true idenity belong to the same being.

Some humans are more rational while others are more non-rational but to the same extent one is less rational is one more non-rational. This goes both ways because our actions will always be the result of reason and non-reasom while the outcome may appear rational or irrational but never non-rational because the volition was engaged to perform the act.

Pain is an illusion and since there are no illusions in heaven there can be no pain in heaven.

Suffering is an illusion and since there are no illusions in heaven there can be no suffering in heaven.

K

Amos:

What?????

Do you believe that heaven is a place you go after you die, or can it only be reached here on earth? If you go there after you die, how can it have anything to do with your conscious mind which stops working at death?

MadMordigan

If at that point you choose to deny or refuse God you could still choose to leave him. Most would not likely make that choice.

According to xian myths, over a finite amount of time, 1/3rd of the population of heaven already has. Given an infinite amount of time, wouldn't the population eventually dwindle down to zero?

Amos

Both, you must survive the first death and crucify the ego only so you can walk away from it.