Copernic

I can't presume to speak for Christians in describing what they understand to be the proper route to Heaven. But I will take a stab at a summation.

Some believe it is through good works, others through faith in Jesus' salvation, others believe it is necessarily via a combination of both.

For those who understand that eternal salvation is earned through faith in Jesus it is necessary that their Heaven is not filled with Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, the mentally handicapped, the adolescent, etc.

Years of theology and thought-provoked Christians have tried to reconcile a loving God and the damning of billions of people who have never heard or intellectually understood the Gospels.

This is where the varying creeds have ebbed and flowed over the years.

So, I'd like to know from our Christian guests,
"What is the fate of those who have never heard the Gospels, don't understand the Gospels, or haven't been convinced?"

I look forward to hearing your take and being given the opportunity to counter with questions.

Thanks
J

Amos

Salvation is native (archetypal) to man and the Gospels are an account of such an event. This means that someday we should all be able to write our own Gospel and compare it with the Gospel of others.

There is no convincing or persuasion needed but a certain kind of character is best suited for this event.

Those who have never heard the Gospels are probably better off than those that have been misled by the Gospels. That is true, indeed, if you think that it is necessary to hear the Gospels for salvation.

Mingan

I would wonder, by the way your phrased your question, what you would say to me if I replied with something along the lines: The bible very clearly states that the only way to be saved is through belief in Jesus Christ, or creation declares to all people the majesty of God and His existence. I suspect I’ll attract every shark in the neighborhood with that, but I’d like to hear another perspective besides the Christian answers. So, here it is the bleeding corpse in the water.

Philosoft

So limited a means of disseminating information would perhaps be evidence that God doesn't want all humans 'up there' with him. Is this the kind of response you were looking for?

Mingan

Would you please clarify what you mean by this statement?

Copernic

Mingan, a scenario that describes this statement is as follows.

Given that the Gospels are a limited means of getting the word out, all who have failed to hear them are destined to eternal separation from God.

So, Philosoft's observation is that your God purposefully doesn't want to hold company with 5 of 6 billion currently thriving souls.

thoughts?
J

Copernic

Amos, that's an interesting take...sort of outside of mainstream Xtianity but intriguing.

What is the intent of this comparison? Are we being graded on a curve?

Your discussion of intrinsic salvation is interesting but I'm unsure of how this is different from the appeal to salvation through good works alone. Is it?

I agree with this statement. What can be more destructive than a missionary touring the world damning people left and right. Better to remain silent and let people reach paradise via their own personal gospel (if I am to understand your take).

Regards
J

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Copernic ]</p>

Mingan

At first glance the Bible does seem to support that argument, although it never specifically says "if you don’t hear the gospel, and have no way of knowing about God, then it’s off to the burning lake for you”. In reality most Biblical claims state something to the effect of you must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved (we assume this means from the burning lake), that if you believe in Jesus and are baptized then you can have eternal life. My point is I don’t think we can specifically call God to account for something as complex as His salvation plan with our incomplete understanding.

Copernic

Mingan, I hope you can appreciate that this concept is one of the core reasons why atheists reject the biblical god. And, why non-Christians are offended by the arrogance and presumption of a Christian religion that makes it clear that, despite the good deeds of billions, only a select few make it to the great beyond (the good one, anyway).

You imply that we can make no sense of God's complex salvation plan. Yet "true" Christians remind us that the salvation plan is quite clear.

Otherwise, it is cruel of God to make such an important issue so clouded in uncertainty. We're talking about my eternal existance here and I am quite unsure as to how to secure it to be a pleasant one.

So my initial question is assuming that God's John 3:16 scheme is quite clear, yet it is incomplete and begs the question...

If salvation is through understanding the Gospels as requiring faith in Jesus, what is to happen to those who never heard the Gospels (ignorant), didn't understand the Gospels, (incompetant), or weren't convinced (incredulous)?

J

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Copernic ]</p>

Jobar

Hello Mingan; welcome to Internet Infidels. I live in Woodbury, about forty miles from you- just north of Manchester. Hope you find your time here interesting.

You seem to be saying that faith is the deciding factor in salvation. Do you think that works are a factor at all? What do you think happens to those who never accept Jesus because they never heard of him? And to those who *have* heard of him but were raised in another religion to which they remained faithful? (I won't ask you what happens to ones like me, who were raised in the Southern Baptist religion and rejected it...)