ex-xian

Hello to all. I'm relatively new here, I've not even been lurking very long.

I am a Christian, although, I've become increasingly questioning of my beliefs recently (I'm not sure how to post HTML, here, but if you would like to know more about my status as a "xianseeker," you could look at my introductory post in the "Welcome/Introductions" forum. Mine is called "little ole me.")

The point of my post is this: atheists have allies in some of the religious persuasion. If the point of view of one religion is introduced into the schools, then all points of view would have to be presented, leaving no time for learning.

Similarly, the atheist would state religion has no place in a public school. This raises a question. Are most atheists here opposed to voluntary private prayer or voluntary Bible/religious clubs meeting outside academic learning times. Many fundamentalists would assert that this is exactly what atheists want.

The church I attend has more than its share of fundamentalists. The youth pastor recently presented a petition calling for "Bible Instruction" to be part of the school curriculum. I'm assuming this goes beyond the ridiculous creationism promoted by some.

thoughts?
comments?

MacPrince

Welcome!
That's good to hear.
Your introduction thread is <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=43&t=000511" target="_blank">here</a>.

We can't use HTML in posts here, but we can use <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=ubb_code_page" target="_blank">UBB code</a>
Yes, but there aren't many.

Exactly.

Not exactly, see below.

Not at all! Students or teachers can pray at any time they want, anywhere they want, as long as they're not disturbing the learning process, and they're not forcing anyone else to pray with them.

Yeah, well that's fundies for 'ya.

The fundies would like nothing better than to be able to use the school system to ram their beliefs down every school child's throat. We have to do whatever we can to stop that from happening.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: MacPrince ]</p>

Rusting Car Bumper

Well the practical considerations are one thing but I think most atheists are against it because it is Unconstitutional.

The atheist would NOT state "Similarly, the atheist would state religion has no place in a public school." If a Christian/Muslim/etc wishes to pray on his or her free time then so be it. If the Christian wishes to discuss religion with the non-Christian at unchtime for example then so be it. Most atheists have no problem with comparative religion classes being taught.

Atheists will differ on answers but it boils down to the dangers associated with having the state sponsor religious activity. The state, its citizens and the the religous are better off having church and state seperate.

Thus, anything that is truly voluntary and not coercive is OK by most atheist's standards.

The only petition that would make that legal would be one that would lead to a Constitutional amendment.

DC

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalChicken ]

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalChicken ]</p>

Undercurrent

Certainly, as an atheist, I think atheism is right, and therefore would love to have everyone be an atheist, and hence, praying would not occur. But as someone with a sense of enlightened self-interest, I wouldn't want the government enforcing that opinion, since it would be dangerous to give any person or institution that much power. So, no, even though it is my opinion that prayer is dumb, I would not be in favour of any sort of supression of it (so long as it is not intrusive.)

I think that you will find that opinion common around here.

Many fundie evangelists spread the ridiculous belief that the removal of in-class, teacher-led prayer (which is government enforcement of the opinion that prayer is not dumb) somehow extends to private prayer of students during non-class time (which would be government enforcement of the opinion that prayer is dumb.) This is completely false.

And the youth minister and his petition signers are welcome to their opinion that their belief system ought to be enforced by the government. The school or school board to which this petition is presented, however, if it is government funded, has no legal choice other than to ignore it.

m.

theyeti

I can't speak for everyone, but I think the answer is overwhelmingly "No". Most of us appreciate freedom of concious and realize it's wrong to enforce a religious viewpoint on students from either direction. Many Christians realize this too, but the noisy fundies tend to drown them out. I for one would strongly defend a student's right to bring a Bible to school and read it on his own time, as well as allowing him to pray as long as he wasn't disruptive, allowing him to form a religious club, etc. If any student were prevented from this free exercise, I would encourage the ACLU to settle the situation, which they would. I only draw the line when the school administration or its staff (i.e. teachers) are promoting religious practice or belief, thus making it either apparent or real that the govt. is supporting one religious viewpoint over another.

ex-xian

I only draw the line when the school administration or its staff (i.e. teachers) are promoting religious practice or belief, thus making it either apparent or real that the govt. is supporting one religious viewpoint over another.
But doesn't this infringe on the teachers' rights? Perhaps I've misunderstood you...are you saying that under no circumstances can teachers, staff, etc be involved in the spiritual aspect of their students lives?

Many schools require all clubs to have a faculty sponsor, so in order for the club to exist, a teacher would have to be involved. I understand that a facultly member should be restricted from outright evangelism, but what should be the response if a student comes to a teacher with a personal problem. Does the position of teacher, and thus representative of gov't outweigh the teacher's rights?

ex-xian

I only draw the line when the school administration or its staff (i.e. teachers) are promoting religious practice or belief, thus making it either apparent or real that the govt. is supporting one religious viewpoint over another.
But doesn't this infringe on the teachers' rights? Perhaps I've misunderstood you...are you saying that under no circumstances can teachers, staff, etc be involved in the spiritual aspect of their students lives?

Many schools require all clubs to have a faculty sponsor, so in order for the club to exist, a teacher would have to be involved. I understand that a facultly member should be restricted from outright evangelism, but what should be the response if a student comes to a teacher with a personal problem. Does the position of teacher, and thus representative of gov't outweigh the teacher's rights?

Philosoft

I would say that, in the sense that the teacher is acting as a representative of the state, it is illegal for said teacher to promote his personal beliefs to his students. Whether that amounts to not "be[ing] involved in the spiritual aspect of their students lives" is another matter. I happen think your objection is entirely too vague to be meaningfully debated.

Tough question. I don't know if "nature of counseling" tests exist which would legally delineate legitimate advice from evangelizing.

ex-idaho

I do not know of any athiest that is against personal freedom of any sort espeically religious freedoms.

The cases that are being borught to court currently are very often planted cases meaning the parents or some other adult or adults have suggested that the students at the heart of the issue do this particular thing. It is sad and pathetic that these children are being used to promote a political agenda.

theyeti

Philosoft gave a good answer. A teacher is a representative of the government when teaching students in school. Therefore she cannot insert her personal views if they are a violation of CSS or contrary to the mandated cirriculum. For the same reason, a teacher is required to teach the standard history cirriculum even if she personally disagrees with it, and would not be allowed for example to teach Holocaust denial. This would not be an infringement of a teacher's rights, just requiring her to do her job as mandated.

Teachers, staff, etc can be involved in the spiritual aspect of their students lives outside of school all they want; at church on Sunday, or after school hours. The school day is for secular learning, and it would be a shame in more ways than one if a teacher spent his time on "spritual issues", whatever those may be, instead of teaching the students what they need to learn.

Students can start informal clubs all they want, or they can start clubs after school. I don't know what the current law pertaining to this is, but I don't see any big deal in preventing religious clubs that are sponsored by the school.

If the student comes to the teacher with a personal problem, I certainly don't have a problem with the teacher expressing her religious views if the student enquires about them or specifically asks for religious advice. I don't see restricting evangelism, especially unsolicited evangelism, as a violation of the teacher's rights. I see it as a validation of the students' and parents' rights.

theyeti