Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rusting Car Bumper · 09-28-2002, 12:24 PM

Well?

DC

Bubba · 09-28-2002, 12:51 PM

Either "something" was created or it has always existed. Self creation is an impossibility. But it is not logically inconsistant to say the universe is self existant and has been around forever.

Even the Christian apologist R.C. Sproul would say a self existant universe is not a philosophical contradition.

Bubba

galiel · 09-28-2002, 02:46 PM

It's a nonsensical question. If there were nothing, you wouldn't be here wondering about it. If you can ask the question, a priori there is something. That doesn't imply a reason for it.

It is like asking why the conditions on Earth are just right for life. If they weren't, there wouldn't be life here, and you wouldn't have evolved to ask the question.

Starboy · 09-28-2002, 03:59 PM

People who wonder about that question are obsessing about nothing.

Shadowy Man · 09-28-2002, 09:15 PM

What does it even mean for there to be nothing?

eh · 09-29-2002, 06:27 AM

The concept of 'nothing' is a negative. The problem for us is, negatives don't exist. Of course, we use negatives in conversations all the time.

Take for example, the statement that Santa Claus does not exist. What does this mean though? Can we really imagine Santa not existing? No. We can only imagine Santa existing, no matter how hard we try. This is because things, by definition, exist.

Negatives, such as 'santa does not exist,' are only products of the mind. We have a concept of Santa, and are merely saying he does not exist outside the mind. For things that exist, we have a concept of them, and say they also have existence outside the mind.

So to talk about nothing, is much like trying to imagine what it's like being dead. It's a self refuting task, and this should give us a clue about what it means to have nothing. Existence does not have any alternatives, as light and darkness do. As such, I can say that nothing, like all negatives, only exist in the human mind. Forgeting about alien brains, of course.

Liquidrage · 09-29-2002, 06:41 AM

No one has an answer for your question.

Neither science nor religion can explain it at the moment.
Religion claims to exlplain it by saying a god of some kind is just capable of being. But it's not a vaild answer, it just passes the buck from an unknown to an unknown with a name.

Science is beginning to have theories. Infinite number systems created by nothings
ie, {0} = 0 , {{0}{0}} = 1, etc..
coupled with a many histories approach and a flow of time from entropy makes at least a dive into the realm of something from nothing.

But it's still an unknown really.

Here is a good book on the subject of nothing that I found to be an easy read despite the complexity of the subject itself.

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375420991/qid=1033310760/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/104-5094193-9785509?v=glance&n=507846" target="_blank">The Book of Nothing: Vacuums, Voids, and the Latest Ideas About the Origins of the Universe
</a>

*no idea how to make the sales from the link go to ii, or more likely Kazaa and Morpheus

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]</p>

WalrusGumBoot · 09-29-2002, 12:14 PM

I think the question is profound. Thinking of the universe and everthing that exists inside, seen and unseen, from a purely naturalistic perspective brings a ton of questions that can boggle the mind. I know I wrestled with many of them myself. I also think it's pointless wasting precious time reading speculations by people who don't have the answers. We haven't even unraveled the mysteries of our own bodies, let alone the mysteries of the universe...

Friar Bellows · 09-29-2002, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquidrage:
<strong>Infinite number systems created by nothings
ie, {0} = 0 , {{0}{0}} = 1, etc..</strong>

I think it goes:

{} = 0
{0} = {{}} = 1
{0, 1} = {{}, {{}}} = 2
{0, 1, 2} = {{}, {{}}, {{}, {{}}}} = 3

atrahasis · 09-30-2002, 03:08 AM

Anybody attempting to answer this question should first try to difine nothing and show that nothing can exist....

How can we compare an objet thats existing to one that is non-existencing [the non-existing one is not even there to start with]

SO...uummmm....

I think this is not scientific and should be taken to Philosophy...Right?

09-28-2002, 12:24 PM	#1
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	Why is there something as opposed to nothing? Well? DC

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09-28-2002, 12:51 PM	#2
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Either "something" was created or it has always existed. Self creation is an impossibility. But it is not logically inconsistant to say the universe is self existant and has been around forever. Even the Christian apologist R.C. Sproul would say a self existant universe is not a philosophical contradition. Bubba

09-28-2002, 02:46 PM	#3
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	It's a nonsensical question. If there were nothing, you wouldn't be here wondering about it. If you can ask the question, a priori there is something. That doesn't imply a reason for it. It is like asking why the conditions on Earth are just right for life. If they weren't, there wouldn't be life here, and you wouldn't have evolved to ask the question.

09-28-2002, 03:59 PM	#4
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	People who wonder about that question are obsessing about nothing.

09-28-2002, 09:15 PM	#5
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	What does it even mean for there to be nothing?

09-29-2002, 06:27 AM	#6
eh Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 624	The concept of 'nothing' is a negative. The problem for us is, negatives don't exist. Of course, we use negatives in conversations all the time. Take for example, the statement that Santa Claus does not exist. What does this mean though? Can we really imagine Santa not existing? No. We can only imagine Santa existing, no matter how hard we try. This is because things, by definition, exist. Negatives, such as 'santa does not exist,' are only products of the mind. We have a concept of Santa, and are merely saying he does not exist outside the mind. For things that exist, we have a concept of them, and say they also have existence outside the mind. So to talk about nothing, is much like trying to imagine what it's like being dead. It's a self refuting task, and this should give us a clue about what it means to have nothing. Existence does not have any alternatives, as light and darkness do. As such, I can say that nothing, like all negatives, only exist in the human mind. Forgeting about alien brains, of course.

09-29-2002, 06:41 AM	#7
Liquidrage Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 1,301	No one has an answer for your question. Neither science nor religion can explain it at the moment. Religion claims to exlplain it by saying a god of some kind is just capable of being. But it's not a vaild answer, it just passes the buck from an unknown to an unknown with a name. Science is beginning to have theories. Infinite number systems created by nothings ie, {0} = 0 , {{0}{0}} = 1, etc.. coupled with a many histories approach and a flow of time from entropy makes at least a dive into the realm of something from nothing. But it's still an unknown really. Here is a good book on the subject of nothing that I found to be an easy read despite the complexity of the subject itself. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375420991/qid=1033310760/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/104-5094193-9785509?v=glance&n=507846" target="_blank">The Book of Nothing: Vacuums, Voids, and the Latest Ideas About the Origins of the Universe </a> *no idea how to make the sales from the link go to ii, or more likely Kazaa and Morpheus [ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]</p>

09-29-2002, 12:14 PM	#8
WalrusGumBoot Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hempstead, Texas Posts: 20	I think the question is profound. Thinking of the universe and everthing that exists inside, seen and unseen, from a purely naturalistic perspective brings a ton of questions that can boggle the mind. I know I wrestled with many of them myself. I also think it's pointless wasting precious time reading speculations by people who don't have the answers. We haven't even unraveled the mysteries of our own bodies, let alone the mysteries of the universe...

09-30-2002, 03:08 AM	#10
atrahasis Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South of Sahara Posts: 216	Anybody attempting to answer this question should first try to difine nothing and show that nothing can exist.... How can we compare an objet thats existing to one that is non-existencing [the non-existing one is not even there to start with] SO...uummmm.... I think this is not scientific and should be taken to Philosophy...Right?

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