GunnerJ

I found it in my paper:

godsquad@telecaretv.org

Questionable Intelligence

quote:
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Here are our best proofs for God. Use them as conversation starters, but understand that your son's God talk is really just a cover for other questions about the meaning of life and his place in the world.
We think God is real, because if there was no God there would be nothing to start the world.

If there is no God, there would be no reason to do good. If there is no God, there would be no difference between people and animals. If there is no God, there would be no souls and no chance that souls could live on after death.

Mostly, if there is no God, there is no reason to get out of bed in the morning and no reason to believe that life has an edge over death, hope an edge over despair and love an edge over hate.


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*cold shudder*
If these are the best proofs for there being a god, atheists are definately right. The first one is simple enough to debunk. Scientists know how the world was created. Its easy, matter collected, and by the magical force of gravity, eventually formed a round rocky ball-aka the world. Secondly there is no difference between animals and humans, other than we are smarter. Yes people, the meaning of life is propogation of the species, just like any other living thing. To prove that there is no afterlife is harder. Just something you believe. And last, as I said before, our scientific purpose in life, our reason for getting up in the morning is to have the species live on. Not to say that we can't do other things with our life.
Boy, I just revealed the meaning of life-I'm smart.

Jobar

DING DING DING DING! Mageth wins the Caddilac!
And the crowd goes wild!


I have an idea here. Let's write these folks a letter- a polite list of, say, twenty questions. Everybody interested, post here your stumpers- go for short, simple, and sharp. Since Rimstalker brought this to our attention, let him pick the best ones (if you're interested in doing this, Rim- if not, I will.)

Hmmm- my offering, to start things off:

If God is perfect, how is it that his creations can be imperfect?

GunnerJ

I suppose, "How big is God's dong?" would be too low-brow for this...

But I'm game, Jobar. I was thinking of sending them a friendly missive myself, anyway.

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Rimstalker ]</p>

The Lone Ranger

I've never seen much value in Deism myself. Why revere a God who -- by you own admission -- doesn't care about us?

Most Deists, as far as I can tell, seem to believe in a God who doesn't concern himself with our petty everyday affairs, but who might be a basically-decent bloke who'll grant them life after death. Apparently, Deists are people who have faced reality and recognized that the Universe doesn't seem to care about us, but can't quite manage to give up their God beliefs.

My take on it is that Deism is Atheism for those who don't have the courage to give up Theism.

[In fairness, many people are so thoroughly indoctrinated into Theism that they're probably incapable of imagining a godless Universe. Deism may be as close to Atheism as they're capable of.]

Cheers,

Michael

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: The Lone Ranger ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

"Must this young man be baptised in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost to be truly saved?"

( OK - so what if it's mostly a question for the Rabbi? )

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Lord Asriel

Okay, here's a couple:

If a baby dies shortly after it is born, what age will it be in heaven?

Why did God create so many beetles?

Skepticwithachainsaw

If that is the best they can come up with (and the mother doesn't sound anybetter) I think we will be welcoming another individual to our ranks pretty soon…
Notice how they target the emotional insercurity of the "meaningless of life" rather than deal with the reasonable problems of theism, what a cliched dodge.

Jobar
Here's some stripped down and simplified version of my favourite questions (got "good question-we don't know Gods nature…" from a Rabbi and one "pass" from some Jehovah Witnesses, quite poor really, Metacrock had a good stab at some of them though)

4) How do you know that the events recorded in the Gospel are true?

5) If God precedes everything where did he get the ideas for creation from?

6) How could God develop concepts such as Love and individuality when he precedes everyone else? (And if he didn't develop them then where did they come from?)

7) If God is beyond space and time how can he change? And if he cannot Change how can he think or act? And if he is not beyond time doesn't that mean that he technically doesn't precede everything?

8) If Adam and Eve were innocent before they had eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge (whatever that is a metaphor for) how could they have know that what they were doing was a sin?


And to cover some answers they are likely to put up.
9) If God is a "logical necessary" where did the structure interpreted by that "logic" come from? (This one in particular needs working on, its damn hard to phrase.)

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Skepticwithachainsaw ]</p>

Defiant Heretic

I think we should also include refutations of their “proofs” in the letter, so here goes...

If the world (and I’m assuming that world is meant in the larger sense to mean universe) needs to have been created by an external force, then the same requirement would logically apply to God as well.

Unless you consider a personal moral code to be reason enough. When an atheist does what is right, it is because he/she chooses too; he/she is not reliant upon the threat of eternal punishment.

There is a difference. It is contained within the genetic code of the organism in question.

This may be true. However, since there is no evidence to suggest that souls or an afterlife do, in fact, exist, this argument becomes irrelevant.

Wishes do not make truth. If there is no god, then we simply must rely on ourselves to create meaning in our lives, instead of being dependent on an outside source.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Defiant Heretic ]</p>

MJones

<strong>I've heard is said that "Even Satan will bend his knee to the Lord Jesus Christ."* When this happens, what will happen to Hell? What will happen with Satan? Will He be sent back to Hell? Or will he be allowed into Heaven? If he is allowed into Heaven, will Hell be abolished?...</strong>

I could go on with this line of questioning for hours. No matter what the answers are, there would be more questions for them to fumble over.

Dirty Dog

* I saw this quote in an email that <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00005643" target="_blank">Oxidizing Material</a> received and posted recently in his thread <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=001008" target="_blank">What the hell is this?</a> in the <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=47" target="_blank">Rants, Raves, and Preaching</a> forum.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Dirty Dog ]</p>