Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bobzammel · 12-24-2002, 12:06 PM

Just wondering...would it be technically possible for them to live together? I've read that the gravity we have today would be unable to support large animals such as Sauropods(Hence why no Elephant or similar creature has never approached the size of say, even the medium-sized sauropods.)

ps418 · 12-24-2002, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel:
Just wondering...would it be technically possible for them to live together? I've read that the gravity we have today would be unable to support large animals such as Sauropods(Hence why no Elephant or similar creature has never approached the size of say, even the medium-sized sauropods.)

I'm have not seen any evidence for change in the gravitational force over geologic time, nor am I aware of any paleoenvironmental reason why sauropods could not have coeexisted with humans.

Bobzammel · 12-24-2002, 01:06 PM

There's also the question of temperature, although I think the blood of Dinosaurs remain in dispute.
I think there would have at least been some record of co-existence, apart from the phony tracks, "artifacts" some Creationists have made, and a total misunderstanding of JOB 41.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Bobzammel ]</p>

pz · 12-24-2002, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418:
I'm have not seen any evidence for change in the gravitational force over geologic time

There isn't. This sounds like an echo of Ted Holden's catastrophism. He makes this extraordinarily odd Velikovskian argument that Venus or Mars hovered over the Earth for a long period of time, reducing the "felt effect of gravity" and having other strange electrical effects. He also had Neandertals flitting on the backs of giant winged teratorns from Earth to Mars, where they were responsible for building elaborate cities and carving the Face on Mars.

It's pretty amusing stuff, but isn't to be taken seriously.

12-24-2002, 06:09 PM

I remember hearing something once about the oxygen level in the atmosphere having decreased substantially ~65 million years ago - leaving a heavier atmosphere (with a higher concentration of Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide). This 1)made it more difficult for dinosaurs to get enough oxygen to support large bodies(because they lacked a diaphragm and having to rely on chest muscles), and 2) made it less difficult for birds to become airborne. Apparently this difference in oxygen level was discovered by looking at bubbles of air trapped in amber.

Jobar · 12-24-2002, 08:33 PM

would it be technically possible for them to live together?

Hmmm. Inarresting question. The problem would be, not gravity, but oxygen pressure, as Jerry Smith points out. There is very good evidence that prior to the Tertiary Earth's atmosphere was richer in oxygen- the size of fossil insects indicates that there was then some way to allow them to oxygenate their tissues, which is not present today; a higher partial pressure of O2 would allow more efficient diffusion, the process which furnishes oxygen to insect tissues.

I don't know if large dinosaurs would be able to exist at the present oxygen levels. I suspect if there was some way to determine this, it would make at least a fine doctoral thesis and at most a Nobel prize.

Camaban · 12-24-2002, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pz:
There isn't. This sounds like an echo Ted Holden's catastrophism. He makes this extraordinarily odd Velikovskian argument that Venus or Mars hovered over the Earth for a long period of time, reducing the "felt effect of gravity" and having other strange electrical effects. He also had Neandertals flitting on the backs of giant winged teratorns from Earth to Mars, where they were responsible for building elaborate cities and carving the Face on Mars.

It's pretty amusing stuff, but isn't to be taken seriously.

Maybe not to be taken seriously, but...

was it written seriously? (Before I discovered creationists, I wouldn't have had to ask that question.... it's actually quite sad that I do)

beausoleil · 12-25-2002, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
Hmmm. Inarresting question. The problem would be, not gravity, but oxygen pressure, as Jerry Smith points out. There is very good evidence that prior to the Tertiary Earth's atmosphere was richer in oxygen- the size of fossil insects indicates that there was then some way to allow them to oxygenate their tissues, which is not present today; a higher partial pressure of O2 would allow more efficient diffusion, the process which furnishes oxygen to insect tissues.

I don't know if large dinosaurs would be able to exist at the present oxygen levels. I suspect if there was some way to determine this, it would make at least a fine doctoral thesis and at most a Nobel prize.

Can't have been much higher since carbon compounds would combust, I seem to remember. Anyone have the numbers handy?

12-25-2002, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Analyses of the gases in these bubbles show that the earth s atmosphere, 67 million years ago, contained nearly 35 percent oxygen compared to present levels of 21 percent. Results are based upon more than 300 analyses by USGS scientists of Cretaceous, Tertiary, and recent-age amber from 16 world sites. The oldest amber in this study is about 130 million years old.

http://minerals.cr.usgs.gov/gips/na/0amber.htm

(AKA MisterSmijer in previous post, due to technical difficulties)

pz · 12-25-2002, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Camaban:
was it written seriously? (Before I discovered creationists, I wouldn't have had to ask that question.... it's actually quite sad that I do)

Yes. Completely seriously. The guy really believes this stuff.

12-24-2002, 12:06 PM	#1
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Dinosaurs and man Just wondering...would it be technically possible for them to live together? I've read that the gravity we have today would be unable to support large animals such as Sauropods(Hence why no Elephant or similar creature has never approached the size of say, even the medium-sized sauropods.)

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12-24-2002, 01:06 PM	#3
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	There's also the question of temperature, although I think the blood of Dinosaurs remain in dispute. I think there would have at least been some record of co-existence, apart from the phony tracks, "artifacts" some Creationists have made, and a total misunderstanding of JOB 41. [ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Bobzammel ]</p>

12-24-2002, 06:09 PM	#5
Guest Posts: n/a	I remember hearing something once about the oxygen level in the atmosphere having decreased substantially ~65 million years ago - leaving a heavier atmosphere (with a higher concentration of Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide). This 1)made it more difficult for dinosaurs to get enough oxygen to support large bodies(because they lacked a diaphragm and having to rely on chest muscles), and 2) made it less difficult for birds to become airborne. Apparently this difference in oxygen level was discovered by looking at bubbles of air trapped in amber.

12-24-2002, 08:33 PM	#6
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	would it be technically possible for them to live together? Hmmm. Inarresting question. The problem would be, not gravity, but oxygen pressure, as Jerry Smith points out. There is very good evidence that prior to the Tertiary Earth's atmosphere was richer in oxygen- the size of fossil insects indicates that there was then some way to allow them to oxygenate their tissues, which is not present today; a higher partial pressure of O2 would allow more efficient diffusion, the process which furnishes oxygen to insect tissues. I don't know if large dinosaurs would be able to exist at the present oxygen levels. I suspect if there was some way to determine this, it would make at least a fine doctoral thesis and at most a Nobel prize.

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