Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sojourner553 · 11-26-2002, 06:23 PM

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Originally posted by The Admiral:
I think he actually said," I disagree with what you say, and I will kick the shit out of you if you say it again".

The Admiral

Obviously you have gotten Voltaire confused with Answerer.

Sojourner553 · 11-26-2002, 06:24 PM

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Originally posted by Apostate:
I, personally, think that one-line putdowns are wasteful. I, personally, don't want to squander Frivolous's rare courage and curiosity by forcing him to combat needless attacks. If his arguments are "lame", then the only way to show it is through the sacred methods of reason.

"If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names." --Elbert V. Hubbard

Set an example please.

Exactly!

Sojourner

fcuk · 11-26-2002, 08:44 PM

i would love to know how 'recessive genes' became the explaination for the multitude of different races all over the world.

Answerer · 11-27-2002, 06:30 AM

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Originally posted by Maverick:


I don't see how this can be anything other than a personal insult. The non-personal version would be "your arguements are absolutely lame".

Maverick - BC&A Moderator

Fine then, I don't think we will have anything 'good' to say to each other, especially when you are forcing your authority. Bye guys, see you all in other threads.

One of the last sane · 11-28-2002, 04:09 AM

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i would love to know how 'recessive genes' became the explaination for the multitude of different races all over the world.

Especially when things like skin color are polygenic traits.

Sojourner553 · 11-28-2002, 05:42 AM

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Originally posted by One of the last sane:

Especially when things like skin color are polygenic traits.

C'mon. Isn't it "obvious"? God created humans on Day 1 with recessive genes.

He also created the earth in six days -- with "older" bones at the lower strata of the earth so that He could trick rational people into thinking these were the result of millions of years of evolution.

So what happened to Frivolous? Hope we didn't chase him off.

Sojourner

suspirar · 12-02-2002, 07:55 AM

Ah hah! Now we may know why the dinosaurs are extinct. The dinosaurs are extinct because Noah didn't put them in his ark!

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Originally posted by Frivolous:

I dont know when the flood happened or what Noah looked like, nor do i think it necessary to be a core component of the story.

Frivolous, we need some hard evidence before we believe the story of Noah's ark. Otherwise, we could believe that Iliad is a true story. Throughout history, people have made up stories for entertainment, or to make up explanations. Even my mother has done the same.

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: suspirar ]

12-02-2002, 09:16 AM

Well, I have heard an archaeologist explaining that some aspects of the Iliad do probably correspond to reality, but one would have to discount all the stuff about the gods plus the Paris/Helen stuff and so forth.

The suggestion about the dinosaurs is correct, of course.

When dinosaurs were first discovered, some serious scientists suggested that they were "antediluvian", i.e. from before the Flood.

Sojourner553 · 12-02-2002, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
Well, I have heard an archaeologist explaining that some aspects of the Iliad do probably correspond to reality, but one would have to discount all the stuff about the gods plus the Paris/Helen stuff and so forth.

The suggestion about the dinosaurs is correct, of course.

When dinosaurs were first discovered, some serious scientists suggested that they were "antediluvian", i.e. from before the Flood.

You'd think though, if dinosaurs were REALLY around before the Flood, that some of the ancient hebrews would have have noticed some ole Tyrannosauruses running around that might warrant a verse or two in the OT? I mean, you never hear of an ancient hebrew worried about being EATEN by an ancient LAND monster.

Ya think? Where's Frivolous?

Sojourner

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

Frivolous · 12-03-2002, 04:49 AM

oh im here im here...

just had a little dilemma to clear up. And now back to this one..

So is my extra space argument holding?

originally posted by me:

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With the vast majority of species being insects and beetles, and guessing that the average beetle is about 1 cubic centimetre, there's plenty of space leftover. Particularly with 1810 cubic centremetres leftover per average beetle. And remember how many species of bacteria there are, 4 million species means including all species i assume. If you worked out the average size of an organism on earth, you would probably find it to be surprisingly small, giving extra space available for extra individuals to be used as food.

posted by Apostate:

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Pregnancy and eggs do not help the problem. The six animals of each species need to have diverse genes (they can't share the same family).

How about eggs from different species of birds from different families, all kept in incubation. That would save even more space.

Someone said that the Ark's deck was below water. Is this true?

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What did you expect, O Frivolous? And you make yourself seem like some whiny big baby.

Thanks. I hope that made you feel better.

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Noah and his family were 8 people -- it would have been a LOT of work to feed all those animals their individual diets. Also, it is expecting a LOT out of chance for all the carnivores to eat only the animals OK for them to eat.

Since when was a lot of work logistically impossible. The story of the Ark is an amazing story of survival.

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Frivolous, you still have not shown the evidence of why chinese historical accounts are less accurate than the biblical one. If you still can't show them, then I will take it that your accusations are baseless.
Posts

I assume the chinese historical accounts are not proven to be more accurate than the biblical one. And so both are equally accurate?

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And you need to learn MUCH more about genetics. Genes come in pairs. In each pair, each person inherits one gene from the mother and one from the father. If one of those genes is dominant, it can only mask the prescence of ONE recessive gene from the other parent. It is not possible for Noah and his family to carry the huge number of different genes that now exist within the human gene pool: they can only carry two genes for each trait! And the same applies to all the other creatures on the Ark.

Phenotypes result from the influence of a combination of many different genes in different locations throughout each chromosome. Thus one dominant gene cannot mask the presence of many others especially in later generations. For instance, a brown eyed parent and a blue eyed parent can have a hazel eyed child.

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First, Race is not a result of recessive traits.

Recessive traits are responsible for some of the characteristics of a race.

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Also if Noah had recessive genes then we all--being his descendents--must have recessive genes. That means that a three foot tall, black as night, couple of Pygmies could give birth to a six foot four blond haired blue eyed Nordic type. Yet that never happens. Why?

Not immediately, but perhaps eventually.
As i was saying before, many different genes in different locations are the result of a single phenotype. Especially with humans. Say Noah had thousands of recessive genes all linked elaborately with each other. Through the generations, these would all be expressed individually. Look at what happened to all the species of domestic dog we have today - all came from a common ancestor.

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And speaking of plants, if they were all under brackish water for a year they would all be dead. Why aren't they?

I assume that floating debris would have formed floating islands.

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The engineering aspect does not make sense either. For instance, in GE 6:15 it states the size of Noah's Ark was such that there would be about one and a half cubic feet for each pair of the 2,000,000 to 5,000,000 species (whichever interpretation you use (2 or more pairs) to be taken aboard. You cannot fit an elephant into a 1.5 cubic foot. Or a hippo, or a horse, or a lion, or...

No, unless the animals were youngsters when they were taken on board. Or they could have fit into all the extra space not taken up by each beetle.

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Which raises another point: why didnt god just allow all the animals to die, then resurrect them? Same with Noah and his family?

I dont know.

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Noah's story is what first caused me to doubt the validity of the entire Old Testament, and consequently the New Testament, so I'm always interested in these threads. For you personally, what evidence would it take for you to not believe?

Undisputable evidence, not shaky facts and ideas based on assumptions that everything back then is the same as it is now.

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On the Ark, who was in charge of keeping the anteaters from the ants? The mongoose (mongeese?) from the cobra? The polar bear from the seal? Were the condors allowed carrion luggage or were they fed the remains of "gate-crashers" who got onto the Ark without proper credentials?

They were kept in different areas. The animals must have also been well behaved. But as i said earlier, when animals are under stress they tend to behave uncharacteristically. Being put into an enormous Ark would be quite stressful.

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11-26-2002, 08:44 PM	#73
fcuk Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: your bathtub Posts: 50	i would love to know how 'recessive genes' became the explaination for the multitude of different races all over the world.

12-02-2002, 09:16 AM	#78
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	Well, I have heard an archaeologist explaining that some aspects of the Iliad do probably correspond to reality, but one would have to discount all the stuff about the gods plus the Paris/Helen stuff and so forth. The suggestion about the dinosaurs is correct, of course. When dinosaurs were first discovered, some serious scientists suggested that they were "antediluvian", i.e. from before the Flood.

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