Freethought & Rationalism Archive

KidFury · 04-04-2003, 01:24 PM

Hi All,

I was just wondering, if we are right and God is just an imaginary friend then are the people speaking in tongues fibbin�?

If they are fibbin� to appear as though they are one of the saved, do you realize the torment these people are under?

Bree · 04-04-2003, 01:29 PM

I don't know about any scientific evidence to back this statement up, but I used to "speak in tongues" because of the environment I was in. I went to this church retreat where they basically deprived us of sleep (and decent food) and got us into the mindset that we WOULD be speaking in tongues because the pastor saw the light of God in us. Group influence and religious fervor was what made ME get up there and do weird-ass stuff.

WWSD · 04-04-2003, 01:35 PM

Sim sala bim bamba sala do saladim

wildernesse · 04-04-2003, 01:50 PM

Can you have an experience that makes you feel as if God is moving through you? Yes, I think so. If it's not really God, does that mean that your experience was a lie? I don't think so--it simply means that there is another explanation for that experience. Even if you told other people that your experience was of God, and later changed your mind, you wouldn't be lying. Just mistaken. Lying implies that the person knows that their communication is false.

I don't understand why people who speak in tongues are represented in the OP as fibbing or in torment.

As a person who was raised Pentecostal, I know many people who experience speaking in tongues--and I don't think that I would dare say that they know that they are really not being moved as the Spirit gives utterance. It is an emotional experience. Some people may doubt that the cause is the Holy Spirit--but it doesn't negate that there is a strong emotional experience.

Also, I don't think that most churches (even Pentecostal ones) would say that you need to speak in tongues to be saved. So, there is no need to lie about that in order to appear saved. In my experience.

--tibac

Bree · 04-04-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
I don't understand why people who speak in tongues are represented in the OP as fibbing or in torment.

I see it as fibbing because they're really not speaking any sort of language. The story of the pentecost (at least in my Bible) shows the disciples suddenly speaking other world languages, so they might go out and preach the gospel to those people in that particular language. So far as I've seen, the modern gibberish we call speaking in tongues is exactly that - gibberish.

wildernesse · 04-04-2003, 02:10 PM

Acts is not the only place that speaking in tongues is mentioned in the Bible. In 1 Corinthians, Paul talks about spiritual gifts and includes both tongues and the interpretation of tongues.

His text does not mention speaking other worldly languages, but of a language that no one understands--uttering mysteries within his spirit. Since it does not edify the church to hear unintelligible talk, it is best that it is interpreted for the group to understand. Anyway, this is not about talking to other people, but more of a spiritual language between a person's spirit and God.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 14:1-25

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[1] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[2] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[3] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[4] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand[5] say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:

"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[6] says the Lord.

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[7] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[8] comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

Bwhaha. Beware unbelievers.

--tibac

Hedwig · 04-04-2003, 02:11 PM

I was a practicing shaman for a while and some shamanic practices create something similar to speaking in tongues. Sleep deprivation and nutritional deprivation (as Bree has mentioned), not to mention the group encouraging the behavior, can have a great impact. Heck, look at people who practice voodoo and their trances. I don't consider the shamanic experience or the voodoo experience to be any less real to the practitioners than speaking in tongues is to certain sects of Christianity. But I don't think that voodoo practitioners are being taken over by spirits and I don't necessarily believe that the shamanic experiences I had were evidence of the spiritual being of the tiger (my spirit animal when I was practising) being a reality. I don't see how the Christian god is any different.

braces_for_impact · 04-04-2003, 02:24 PM

I was visiting my uncle some years ago when I was 'fortunate' to be able (forced) to attend his church. It was Pentecostal. I was from a Christian Reformed tradition, and I was shocked by how different the two churches were. That was the first time I saw people speaking in tongues, and I didn't buy it for a minute. About my third time there I stood up and spoke some gibberish I made up off the top of my head. Imagine my surprise when someone several rows down 'translated' my gibberish using her gift from the Holy Spirit!

My uncle was very angry with me for pulling that particular stunt, as he knew full well I didn't buy into the concept. When several people came and congratulated us on my new found 'gift' after service, my uncle softened,and came to the conclusion that I had spoken in tongues. His idea was that although I had intended to be blasphemous, the holy spirit used me as a tool despite my dastardly intentions.

Biff the unclean · 04-04-2003, 02:35 PM

The weird carryings on that constitute "speaking in tongues," is exactly what the Pythoness at the Oracle at Delphi used to do. She would speak in tongues & dance around a bit, a priest of Apollo would write out what she had said for you, then you would take the script to a translator/vendor in the town of Delphi and they would write it in plain Greek.

Kintaro · 04-04-2003, 03:24 PM

What about the "scatting" by Scatman John ?

Is declaring "I'm the Scatman" after speaking tongue the fecal equivalent of "I'm closer to God"..... no matter, both are shoved in your throat.

(sorry, I just had to let this attempt at a joke out)

04-04-2003, 01:24 PM	#1
KidFury Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 372	Speaking in tongues Hi All, I was just wondering, if we are right and God is just an imaginary friend then are the people speaking in tongues fibbin�? If they are fibbin� to appear as though they are one of the saved, do you realize the torment these people are under?

04-04-2003, 02:35 PM	#9
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Been there done that The weird carryings on that constitute "speaking in tongues," is exactly what the Pythoness at the Oracle at Delphi used to do. She would speak in tongues & dance around a bit, a priest of Apollo would write out what she had said for you, then you would take the script to a translator/vendor in the town of Delphi and they would write it in plain Greek.

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04-04-2003, 01:29 PM	#2
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	I don't know about any scientific evidence to back this statement up, but I used to "speak in tongues" because of the environment I was in. I went to this church retreat where they basically deprived us of sleep (and decent food) and got us into the mindset that we WOULD be speaking in tongues because the pastor saw the light of God in us. Group influence and religious fervor was what made ME get up there and do weird-ass stuff.

04-04-2003, 01:35 PM	#3
WWSD Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Albucrazy, New Mexico Posts: 1,425	Sim sala bim bamba sala do saladim

04-04-2003, 01:50 PM	#4
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	Can you have an experience that makes you feel as if God is moving through you? Yes, I think so. If it's not really God, does that mean that your experience was a lie? I don't think so--it simply means that there is another explanation for that experience. Even if you told other people that your experience was of God, and later changed your mind, you wouldn't be lying. Just mistaken. Lying implies that the person knows that their communication is false. I don't understand why people who speak in tongues are represented in the OP as fibbing or in torment. As a person who was raised Pentecostal, I know many people who experience speaking in tongues--and I don't think that I would dare say that they know that they are really not being moved as the Spirit gives utterance. It is an emotional experience. Some people may doubt that the cause is the Holy Spirit--but it doesn't negate that there is a strong emotional experience. Also, I don't think that most churches (even Pentecostal ones) would say that you need to speak in tongues to be saved. So, there is no need to lie about that in order to appear saved. In my experience. --tibac

04-04-2003, 02:11 PM	#7
Hedwig Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 3,921	I was a practicing shaman for a while and some shamanic practices create something similar to speaking in tongues. Sleep deprivation and nutritional deprivation (as Bree has mentioned), not to mention the group encouraging the behavior, can have a great impact. Heck, look at people who practice voodoo and their trances. I don't consider the shamanic experience or the voodoo experience to be any less real to the practitioners than speaking in tongues is to certain sects of Christianity. But I don't think that voodoo practitioners are being taken over by spirits and I don't necessarily believe that the shamanic experiences I had were evidence of the spiritual being of the tiger (my spirit animal when I was practising) being a reality. I don't see how the Christian god is any different.

04-04-2003, 02:24 PM	#8
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	I was visiting my uncle some years ago when I was 'fortunate' to be able (forced) to attend his church. It was Pentecostal. I was from a Christian Reformed tradition, and I was shocked by how different the two churches were. That was the first time I saw people speaking in tongues, and I didn't buy it for a minute. About my third time there I stood up and spoke some gibberish I made up off the top of my head. Imagine my surprise when someone several rows down 'translated' my gibberish using her gift from the Holy Spirit! My uncle was very angry with me for pulling that particular stunt, as he knew full well I didn't buy into the concept. When several people came and congratulated us on my new found 'gift' after service, my uncle softened,and came to the conclusion that I had spoken in tongues. His idea was that although I had intended to be blasphemous, the holy spirit used me as a tool despite my dastardly intentions.

04-04-2003, 03:24 PM	#10
Kintaro Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 247	What about the "scatting" by Scatman John ? Is declaring "I'm the Scatman" after speaking tongue the fecal equivalent of "I'm closer to God"..... no matter, both are shoved in your throat. (sorry, I just had to let this attempt at a joke out)

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