Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 06-09-2002, 03:34 PM

This is sort of a side note to <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000360" target="_blank">Syphor's excellent argument here.</a>

If God is omnipresent, as well as omniscient and omnipotent- just how can we be said to be independent or free? If God is within our bodies to the final atom, is He not also within our minds and souls? (Noted that we have no useful description of what a 'soul' is.) If all our thoughts and actions are within His sight at each micro-instant, and His power is such that any action of ours may always be changed by Him- then how can *anything* be called free of God's will?

This is one facet of the question "what is a soul, and how is it separate from God?"

Syphor · 06-09-2002, 10:23 PM

Oh praise, thankyou

Theists will say that because God is just observing our actions, he is not responsible for them. This would be true if it weren't for the fact that he is responsible for the creation of the universe with the knowledge of what our actions will be. This freewill was also apparently given to us by god, and therefore this makes god responsible for what we do with it.

Typhon · 06-10-2002, 12:41 PM

I've always thought it lurked in the bushes, along with that god fellow who likes to mug me on the way home when I've had a few pints too many.

I personally don't think there is any need for Free Will. As an atheist, there is no other will, save our own, and hence, no god to either mettle or not, in our destinies.

I understand your question though. Yet, if this was so, then it would seem any such created life, would just be a copy or offshoot of its creator, and just as perfect. No sin.

This works for me, again, as I hold no belief in sin, as anything but a word we humans have come up with.

Cheers,

.T.

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

ishalon · 06-10-2002, 12:50 PM

"Sins" are only whatever society happens to comdemn at the time, anyway

luvluv · 06-10-2002, 05:51 PM

"This would be true if it weren't for the fact that he is responsible for the creation of the universe with the knowledge of what our actions will be. This freewill was also apparently given to us by god, and therefore this makes god responsible for what we do with it."

I don't understand this: if I give you the ability to freely chose your path, that makes ME responsible for the path you choose?

I might know that you were going to do something terrible, and I might create you anyway, but that does not change the fact that YOU did something terrible, and you could just as easily have not done it, and are therefore responsible for it.

ax · 06-10-2002, 06:04 PM

Quote:

I might know that you were going to do something terrible, and I might create you anyway, but that does not change the fact that YOU did something terrible, and you could just as easily have not done it, and are therefore responsible for it.

Did you make and determine how his logic worked? Did you make the enviroment and everything that will effect his decision making? Did you give him the thing to make the choice with?

luvluv · 06-10-2002, 06:06 PM

Yes, and I gave him the ability to choose.

(And much of the current state of the environment is not the result of God's doing)

ax · 06-10-2002, 06:15 PM

God made man
God made satan
God placed the tree in the garden
God knew what would happen
who is at fault?
If you give a suicidal man a gun and say " don't shoot!" and he shoots himself, and you went to court etc who is at fault for his death? it is you and him, you are both responisble.Y gave him the ability to choose to kill himself and to not kill himself, then gave him the means to do it, knew that he would do it, then when he does-you punish him for it-right?

unworthyone · 06-10-2002, 06:36 PM

I dont think Adam was suicidal.

luvluv · 06-10-2002, 06:46 PM

Yes God made them all but he didn't make their choices.

06-09-2002, 03:34 PM	#1
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Where does freewill lurk? This is sort of a side note to <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000360" target="_blank">Syphor's excellent argument here.</a> If God is omnipresent, as well as omniscient and omnipotent- just how can we be said to be independent or free? If God is within our bodies to the final atom, is He not also within our minds and souls? (Noted that we have no useful description of what a 'soul' is.) If all our thoughts and actions are within His sight at each micro-instant, and His power is such that any action of ours may always be changed by Him- then how can anything be called free of God's will? This is one facet of the question "what is a soul, and how is it separate from God?"

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06-09-2002, 10:23 PM	#2
Syphor Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 991	Oh praise, thankyou Theists will say that because God is just observing our actions, he is not responsible for them. This would be true if it weren't for the fact that he is responsible for the creation of the universe with the knowledge of what our actions will be. This freewill was also apparently given to us by god, and therefore this makes god responsible for what we do with it.

06-10-2002, 12:41 PM	#3
Typhon Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mount Aetna Posts: 271	I've always thought it lurked in the bushes, along with that god fellow who likes to mug me on the way home when I've had a few pints too many. I personally don't think there is any need for Free Will. As an atheist, there is no other will, save our own, and hence, no god to either mettle or not, in our destinies. I understand your question though. Yet, if this was so, then it would seem any such created life, would just be a copy or offshoot of its creator, and just as perfect. No sin. This works for me, again, as I hold no belief in sin, as anything but a word we humans have come up with. Cheers, .T. [ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

06-10-2002, 12:50 PM	#4
ishalon Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: From: Posts: 203	"Sins" are only whatever society happens to comdemn at the time, anyway

06-10-2002, 05:51 PM	#5
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	"This would be true if it weren't for the fact that he is responsible for the creation of the universe with the knowledge of what our actions will be. This freewill was also apparently given to us by god, and therefore this makes god responsible for what we do with it." I don't understand this: if I give you the ability to freely chose your path, that makes ME responsible for the path you choose? I might know that you were going to do something terrible, and I might create you anyway, but that does not change the fact that YOU did something terrible, and you could just as easily have not done it, and are therefore responsible for it.

06-10-2002, 06:06 PM	#7
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Yes, and I gave him the ability to choose. (And much of the current state of the environment is not the result of God's doing)

06-10-2002, 06:15 PM	#8
ax Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In your mind! Posts: 289	God made man God made satan God placed the tree in the garden God knew what would happen who is at fault? If you give a suicidal man a gun and say " don't shoot!" and he shoots himself, and you went to court etc who is at fault for his death? it is you and him, you are both responisble.Y gave him the ability to choose to kill himself and to not kill himself, then gave him the means to do it, knew that he would do it, then when he does-you punish him for it-right?

06-10-2002, 06:36 PM	#9
unworthyone Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: oklahoma Posts: 96	I dont think Adam was suicidal.

06-10-2002, 06:46 PM	#10
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Yes God made them all but he didn't make their choices.

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