Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ojuice5001 · 07-12-2002, 01:44 PM

Well, in the case of Romans, the idea behind worship was to set up an agreement of friendship with the gods. It was much the same thing as swearing allegiance to Caesar--a ritual that indicates that the worshipper and the god owe loyalty to each other, control resting with the god of course. If you merely admired the god like you admire a celebrity, no one is obliged to do anything for anyone. The gods want worship not because they are insecure, but because that stabilizes their power over the world. Other religions have different ideas.

hinduwoman · 07-16-2002, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001:
<strong>Well, in the case of Romans, the idea behind worship was to set up an agreement of friendship with the gods. It was much the same thing as swearing allegiance to Caesar--a ritual that indicates that the worshipper and the god owe loyalty to each other, control resting with the god of course. If you merely admired the god like you admire a celebrity, no one is obliged to do anything for anyone. The gods want worship not because they are insecure, but because that stabilizes their power over the world. Other religions have different ideas.</strong>

Yeah, you can admire Ram thinking him to be a god but worship Kali.

Tom Sawyer · 07-17-2002, 12:32 PM

This idea of worship has always kind of puzzled me too. Personally, I'd never bow before a God who was so vain he'd want me to bow before him.

I think the whole deal behind it, other than being another tool to help subjugate the masses, is to recognize that God is above you and you owe everything you have and are to him. It's a way of thanking him for giving you life and creating the world and your friends and loved ones and thong bikinis.

Everything you are or ever will be you owe to him and it's a way of recognizing that fact and thanking him and letting him know you appreciate all the hard work.

Pomp · 07-17-2002, 01:14 PM

Ojuice5001,

The gods want worship not because they are insecure, but because that stabilizes their power over the world. Other religions have different ideas.

That makes a degree of sense when we're talking about non-omnimax gods, such as the Roman pantheon or even the primitive Canaanite gods that eventually evolved into Yahweh. I suppose the modern notion of worship could be a simple development of this idea.

RogerLeeCooke · 07-17-2002, 04:58 PM

I too was once a Christian. Having been a Catholic, I lapsed into atheism, then was converted to Anglicanism by reading the writings of Dorothy Sayers and CS Lewis, writings that now seem terribly naive to me. When I was a Christian, I worried that I was becoming fanatical. It seemed that all I wanted to do was go to church, hear the liturgy, and talk with people about what a glorious thing Christianity was.

But at heart I lack "spiritual gifts." Despite being surrounded by Christians in my family and among my friends, I am completely anesthetic to the stuff. On the rare occasions when I go to church, the liturgy seems to me to be just pointless, a colossal futility. And when I am at a social gathering where religiously-minded people are discussing "spiritual" matters, I inwardly turn off. It just seems inconceivable to me that anybody would waste their time seriously considering such drivel, even though two decades ago, I was a person who would seriously consider such drivel.

My deconversion resembles very much the one described by Edmund Cohen in "The Mind of the Bible Believer," probably a book many of you are familiar with.

So, after that ramble, I have to say, I really don't know why people worship. I think as very young children we are malleable and absorb societal expectations about us, like baby chicks "imprinting" with their mother in order to learn how to behave like proper chicks. When we become adults, we realize that WE are now the mother hens, and hence don't have to follow orders any more. This situation is so scary that we replace the society that molded us with a "super lawgiver" in heaven. And that super lawgiver, by an astounding coincidence, always tells its disciples to obey the rules they learned from the society around them. It's (to me) very revealing that theists so often advance a supposed need for *grounds* for morality as a reason for believing in gods. If there is a single cause of worship, I'd look for it there.

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: RogerLeeCooke ]</p>

foursquareman · 07-17-2002, 06:41 PM

Me being a christian, I'll give my take on it. Like Paddy said, I worship because God has done great things for me (dying on the cross). Even before that, God loves us even though he knows us, which means he is worthy of woship.

Note: these are my reasons, stupid though they may seem.

Hope that helps!

Keith Russell · 07-17-2002, 06:51 PM

Greetings:

I have not ever worshipped, do not worship, and will never worship.

Keith.

Pomp · 07-17-2002, 07:36 PM

foursquareman,

I worship because God has done great things for me (dying on the cross). Even before that, God loves us even though he knows us, which means he is worthy of woship.

Out of curiosity, do you worship others, say your parents, who have done great things for you and who love you?

Caverdude · 07-17-2002, 08:06 PM

You have touched on a question I have long wondered about. The very definition of God is a omnipotent, flawless being. That said, why would God want us bowing and scraping and sacrificing all the time. That would imply vanity (a personality FAULT). I think concepts such as worship were created by the Churches (or writers of the various theological books) as a tool to keep people in line and coming back to church.

foursquareman · 07-17-2002, 08:07 PM

in reply to Pompous,

no I don't. I try to show them love and affection, which is similar to the worship I try and give God, but to worship someone other than God is wrong. God is the greatest thing in my life, only He deserves my worship.

Noone is perfect except God, so I don't want to worship something that isn't perfect.

is that alright?

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07-12-2002, 01:44 PM	#11
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Well, in the case of Romans, the idea behind worship was to set up an agreement of friendship with the gods. It was much the same thing as swearing allegiance to Caesar--a ritual that indicates that the worshipper and the god owe loyalty to each other, control resting with the god of course. If you merely admired the god like you admire a celebrity, no one is obliged to do anything for anyone. The gods want worship not because they are insecure, but because that stabilizes their power over the world. Other religions have different ideas.

07-17-2002, 12:32 PM	#13
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	This idea of worship has always kind of puzzled me too. Personally, I'd never bow before a God who was so vain he'd want me to bow before him. I think the whole deal behind it, other than being another tool to help subjugate the masses, is to recognize that God is above you and you owe everything you have and are to him. It's a way of thanking him for giving you life and creating the world and your friends and loved ones and thong bikinis. Everything you are or ever will be you owe to him and it's a way of recognizing that fact and thanking him and letting him know you appreciate all the hard work.

07-17-2002, 01:14 PM	#14
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	Ojuice5001, The gods want worship not because they are insecure, but because that stabilizes their power over the world. Other religions have different ideas. That makes a degree of sense when we're talking about non-omnimax gods, such as the Roman pantheon or even the primitive Canaanite gods that eventually evolved into Yahweh. I suppose the modern notion of worship could be a simple development of this idea.

07-17-2002, 04:58 PM	#15
RogerLeeCooke Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Burlington, Vermont, USA Posts: 177	I too was once a Christian. Having been a Catholic, I lapsed into atheism, then was converted to Anglicanism by reading the writings of Dorothy Sayers and CS Lewis, writings that now seem terribly naive to me. When I was a Christian, I worried that I was becoming fanatical. It seemed that all I wanted to do was go to church, hear the liturgy, and talk with people about what a glorious thing Christianity was. But at heart I lack "spiritual gifts." Despite being surrounded by Christians in my family and among my friends, I am completely anesthetic to the stuff. On the rare occasions when I go to church, the liturgy seems to me to be just pointless, a colossal futility. And when I am at a social gathering where religiously-minded people are discussing "spiritual" matters, I inwardly turn off. It just seems inconceivable to me that anybody would waste their time seriously considering such drivel, even though two decades ago, I was a person who would seriously consider such drivel. My deconversion resembles very much the one described by Edmund Cohen in "The Mind of the Bible Believer," probably a book many of you are familiar with. So, after that ramble, I have to say, I really don't know why people worship. I think as very young children we are malleable and absorb societal expectations about us, like baby chicks "imprinting" with their mother in order to learn how to behave like proper chicks. When we become adults, we realize that WE are now the mother hens, and hence don't have to follow orders any more. This situation is so scary that we replace the society that molded us with a "super lawgiver" in heaven. And that super lawgiver, by an astounding coincidence, always tells its disciples to obey the rules they learned from the society around them. It's (to me) very revealing that theists so often advance a supposed need for grounds for morality as a reason for believing in gods. If there is a single cause of worship, I'd look for it there. [ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: RogerLeeCooke ]</p>

07-17-2002, 06:41 PM	#16
foursquareman Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 63	Me being a christian, I'll give my take on it. Like Paddy said, I worship because God has done great things for me (dying on the cross). Even before that, God loves us even though he knows us, which means he is worthy of woship. Note: these are my reasons, stupid though they may seem. Hope that helps!

07-17-2002, 06:51 PM	#17
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: I have not ever worshipped, do not worship, and will never worship. Keith.

07-17-2002, 07:36 PM	#18
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	foursquareman, I worship because God has done great things for me (dying on the cross). Even before that, God loves us even though he knows us, which means he is worthy of woship. Out of curiosity, do you worship others, say your parents, who have done great things for you and who love you?

07-17-2002, 08:06 PM	#19
Caverdude Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bristol, TN Posts: 83	You have touched on a question I have long wondered about. The very definition of God is a omnipotent, flawless being. That said, why would God want us bowing and scraping and sacrificing all the time. That would imply vanity (a personality FAULT). I think concepts such as worship were created by the Churches (or writers of the various theological books) as a tool to keep people in line and coming back to church.

07-17-2002, 08:07 PM	#20
foursquareman Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 63	in reply to Pompous, no I don't. I try to show them love and affection, which is similar to the worship I try and give God, but to worship someone other than God is wrong. God is the greatest thing in my life, only He deserves my worship. Noone is perfect except God, so I don't want to worship something that isn't perfect. is that alright?

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