Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeremy Pallant · 12-12-2002, 06:42 AM

In the thread How is the US Constitution a result of "Christian principles", it became evident that there is a marked difference between "Christian principles" and "the principles of Christians." To my considerable surprise, one of the main combatants in the discussion agreed with the distinction, that he was arguing based on the latter, and that a clarification of the question would be advisable.

To get us away from the subject of who among the Founding Fathers was or was not a Deist/Unitarian/Christian/Atheist which, while interesting, doesn't address the original topic, I would like to propose a different question.

I have heard, on many occasions, Christians claim that the US Constitution has its origin in the Bible. As such, I would be interested in seeing chapter and verse justification of this claim.

scombrid · 12-12-2002, 08:57 AM

Grumpy · 12-12-2002, 02:18 PM

OK, I'll repost this once more, and if nobody cares this time, I'll just drop it.
-----------------------------------
Matthew 5:25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court."
sounds like
Amendment VI "...the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial..."

Of course, Jesus was talking about settling out of court in civil cases, while the 6th Amendment preserves the rights of criminal defendants.

[Plenty of contrary influences, though.]

Matthew 5:18 (NIV) "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
versus
Article V "The Congress... shall propose amendments to this Constitution... which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof..."

Matthew 5:34-37 "But I tell you, Do not swear at all... Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the Evil One."
versus
Article II, Section 1, para. 7 "Before he [the President] enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation -- 'I do solemnly swear (or affirm)...'"

Matthew 5:43-44 "You have heard it said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies..."
versus
Article III, Section 3, para. 1 "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or, in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

Matthew 6:19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal."
versus
Article I, Section 8, para. 1 "The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises..."

Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters.... You cannot serve both God and Money."
versus
Article I, Section 8, para. 5 "[The Congress shall have the power] To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin..."

Matthew 6:25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink..."
versus
U.S. Code, Title 21, Chapter 9, subchapter iv, section 341 "DEFINITIONS AND STANDARDS FOR FOOD" and "Any definition and standard of identity prescribed by the Secretary for avocadoes, cantaloupes, citrus fruits, or melons shall relate only to maturity and to the effects of freezing."

Matthew 6:34 "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself."
versus
U.S. Code, Title 31, Subtitle II, Chapter 11, section 1105 "On or after the first Monday in January but not later than the first Monday in February of each year, the President shall submit a budget of the United States Government for the following fiscal year."

and finally

Matthew 7:26 "...Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand."
versus
U.S. Code, Title 43, Chapter 9, Section 321 "It shall be lawful for any citizen of the United States... to reclaim a tract of desert land not exceeding one-half section, by conducting water upon the same..."

And that's just the Sermon on the Mount! (Okay, maybe the last one is a stretch.)

Grumpy · 12-13-2002, 02:15 PM

Consider it dropped.

hezekiah jones · 12-13-2002, 03:32 PM

Grumpy, I read it in both of the other threads. I thought it was pretty clever. I never drew attention to it because I think Radorth should come up with his own examples, which he hasn't, to date.

Jeremy Pallant · 12-13-2002, 08:30 PM

What Hezekiah Jones said.

If I were to compose a lengthy reply to Grumpy's contribution, a precis of that reply would be something along the lines of "clever, but really, really contrived."

12-14-2002, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiah jones:
<strong>...I think Radorth should come up with his own examples, which he hasn't, to date.</strong>

That would require Radorth to answer a straight fucking question. Don't you realize that is against his religion? <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-14-2002, 08:09 PM

Here we come a waffle-ing, a waffle-ing with glee,
Here we come a waffle-ing, so fair to be seen
So may joy come to you, something something waffel too, something something something *cough mutter*.

Sorry, just felt like singing a Christmas song, since this thread isn't being used to anything else.

12-12-2002, 06:42 AM	#1
Jeremy Pallant Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,242	How does the US Constitution find its origin in the Bible? In the thread How is the US Constitution a result of "Christian principles", it became evident that there is a marked difference between "Christian principles" and "the principles of Christians." To my considerable surprise, one of the main combatants in the discussion agreed with the distinction, that he was arguing based on the latter, and that a clarification of the question would be advisable. To get us away from the subject of who among the Founding Fathers was or was not a Deist/Unitarian/Christian/Atheist which, while interesting, doesn't address the original topic, I would like to propose a different question. I have heard, on many occasions, Christians claim that the US Constitution has its origin in the Bible. As such, I would be interested in seeing chapter and verse justification of this claim.

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12-12-2002, 08:57 AM	#2
scombrid Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,759	<crickets chirping>

12-12-2002, 02:18 PM	#3
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	OK, I'll repost this once more, and if nobody cares this time, I'll just drop it. ----------------------------------- Matthew 5:25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court." sounds like Amendment VI "...the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial..." Of course, Jesus was talking about settling out of court in civil cases, while the 6th Amendment preserves the rights of criminal defendants. [Plenty of contrary influences, though.] Matthew 5:18 (NIV) "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." versus Article V "The Congress... shall propose amendments to this Constitution... which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof..." Matthew 5:34-37 "But I tell you, Do not swear at all... Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the Evil One." versus Article II, Section 1, para. 7 "Before he [the President] enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation -- 'I do solemnly swear (or affirm)...'" Matthew 5:43-44 "You have heard it said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies..." versus Article III, Section 3, para. 1 "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or, in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." Matthew 6:19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal." versus Article I, Section 8, para. 1 "The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises..." Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters.... You cannot serve both God and Money." versus Article I, Section 8, para. 5 "[The Congress shall have the power] To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin..." Matthew 6:25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink..." versus U.S. Code, Title 21, Chapter 9, subchapter iv, section 341 "DEFINITIONS AND STANDARDS FOR FOOD" and "Any definition and standard of identity prescribed by the Secretary for avocadoes, cantaloupes, citrus fruits, or melons shall relate only to maturity and to the effects of freezing." Matthew 6:34 "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself." versus U.S. Code, Title 31, Subtitle II, Chapter 11, section 1105 "On or after the first Monday in January but not later than the first Monday in February of each year, the President shall submit a budget of the United States Government for the following fiscal year." and finally Matthew 7:26 "...Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand." versus U.S. Code, Title 43, Chapter 9, Section 321 "It shall be lawful for any citizen of the United States... to reclaim a tract of desert land not exceeding one-half section, by conducting water upon the same..." And that's just the Sermon on the Mount! (Okay, maybe the last one is a stretch.)

12-13-2002, 02:15 PM	#4
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Consider it dropped.

12-13-2002, 03:32 PM	#5
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Grumpy, I read it in both of the other threads. I thought it was pretty clever. I never drew attention to it because I think Radorth should come up with his own examples, which he hasn't, to date.

12-13-2002, 08:30 PM	#6
Jeremy Pallant Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,242	What Hezekiah Jones said. If I were to compose a lengthy reply to Grumpy's contribution, a precis of that reply would be something along the lines of "clever, but really, really contrived."

12-14-2002, 08:09 PM	#8
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	Here we come a waffle-ing, a waffle-ing with glee, Here we come a waffle-ing, so fair to be seen So may joy come to you, something something waffel too, something something something cough mutter. Sorry, just felt like singing a Christmas song, since this thread isn't being used to anything else.

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