Freethought & Rationalism Archive

beth · 07-17-2003, 06:44 AM

SOTC, did you get my PM?
~Beth

Jorge · 07-17-2003, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by Jobar

I want to quote something from one of our regular members; bd-from-kg posted this several months ago:

<................................>

This cuts to the heart of our disbelief in the Bible; it is so very obviously the product of humans- yet you believers claim that it is the "Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God"! To us that simply seems laughable- until we remember that less than three hundred years ago people were burned at the stake for so laughing.

Men, not God, wrote the Bible; men, not God, name it holy. Just like the Koran, and the Book of the Dead, and umpty-ump other documents supposedly handed down from on high, not a single word is from any god.

I understand your position. However...

Anyone that has studied formal systems knows that the worthiness of the conclusion is directly proportional to the worthiness of the premise. The conclusion that you people arrive at regarding the Bible is no exception.

Your conclusion regarding the Bible is completely erroneous on the grounds that your premise - and this includes the poor quality and/or the lack of knowledge in this matter - is woefully inadequate.

I am forced to remind you once again that even a person such as myself - hardly what anyone would consider a scholar in these areas - has conducted umpteen times more serious study of the evidence than you have. Just imagine, if you can, what the countless people that have dedicated most of their lives to this study know about this subject. I've studied much of the works of these people and it is... staggering!

I know that the above may come across as an 'appeal to authority' but what it is is a fact. What I'm saying in as nice a way as I can muster is that you are simply ignorant of what you're saying. Also, allow me to remind you that being ignorant is not being stupid - ignorance is merely a state of 'not knowing', it has a remedy.

The way I see it you have in essence two options: Stop 'blasting' the Bible until you become better educated in the matter (this includes asking questions in a scholarly fashion) OR continue 'blasting' away at the Bible with all sorts of allegations even though deep down inside you know that you really don't know what you're talking about. The choice is yours.

Jorge

Jorge · 07-17-2003, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by BioBeing

What a way to avoid the question!

Is this your personal definition of "avoiding the question"?

Aurguments of your type are pointless too, you know. "Take two of these pills and call me when you can read the bible my way" is what you are saying. Arrogant and offensive is what i say. And possibly the fallacy of aurgument ad authoritarium.

Wrong on both counts, BioBeing.

Why do you think that is? God's own work, his one tome to mankind, and you have to have a PhD to read it? Kind of an important book to make quite so obtuse, isn't it?

Ahhh... the sweet sounds of ignorance.

And what do you say Jorge, to the Bible scholars who are atheists?

Simple question, simple answer:

Satan himself knows the Bible cover-to-cover. Heck, he even tried to deceive none other than Christ by employing Scripture in a deceptive manner.

The point is that knowledge of God's word is not the key, rather it is a heart-filled acceptance and a submission to the authority of His word that shows us how we stand with Him. Knowledge of God's word is merely a foundation.

The Bible scholars you speak of are simply headed for an unpleasant future. Better to never have known Him than to know Him and then reject Him. Of course, while they live they have the opportunity for a genuine repentance and return to God's family.

There's your answer, BioBeing.

Jorge

Hawkingfan · 07-17-2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jorge
The way I see it you have in essence two options: Stop 'blasting' the Bible until you become better educated in the matter (this includes asking questions in a scholarly fashion) OR continue 'blasting' away at the Bible with all sorts of allegations even though deep down inside you know that you really don't know what you're talking about. The choice is yours.

Jorge[/color] [/B]

So I take it you condone slavery and the murder of innocent babies as condoned in the bible? I take it you condone the inhumane treatment of slaves and letting rapists off easy as condoned in the bible?

I will never, NEVER let the bible off the hook for it's atrocities and scientific absurdities.

Jorge · 07-17-2003, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan
So I take it you condone slavery and the murder of innocent babies as condoned in the bible? I take it you condone the inhumane treatment of slaves and letting rapists off easy as condoned in the bible?

I will never, NEVER let the bible off the hook for it's atrocities and scientific absurdities.

Wouldn't you prefer to be corrected of any misconceptions that you had or is it that you're quite content with these misconceptions and don't want to your 'belief system' to be upset? Be truthful...

Jorge

contracycle · 07-17-2003, 08:08 AM

What misconceptions? Plenty of atrocities and brutality in the OT.

"It will yet be the proud boast of women that they never contributed a line to the Bible." George W. Foote

Normal · 07-17-2003, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by contracycle
Plenty of atrocities and brutality in the OT.

If you don't believe the flood happened, or genesis is true, why take everything else as truth?

Wayne Delia · 07-17-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
Augustine is spot on, and my favourite theologian. Your point being?

My point would be that St. Augustine would have a hard time picking up attractive ladies at any party he might be invited to.

"Women should not be enlightened or educated in any way.
They should, in fact, be segregated as they are the cause
of hideous and involuntary erections in holy men."
(St. Augustine, 354-430, "Soliloquies") He would have a difficult time getting into Phi Kappa Sigma with that attitude.

Still, his religious teachings are the relevant issue here.

"All diseases of Christians are to be ascribed to demons;
chiefly do they torment freshly-baptized Christians,
yea, even the guiltless new-born infants."

Seems like St. Augustine forgot about "original sin" when he described newborn infants as "guiltless".

"Spot on," you were saying?

WMD

Jorge · 07-17-2003, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by contracycle
What misconceptions? Plenty of atrocities and brutality in the OT.

No, contracycle... lots of apparent "attrocities and brutality in the OT".

The point is that if one doesn't know/understand the whole story (or at least enough of it) then one ought to remain silent - it's the only sensible and fair thing to do. Wouldn't you agree or do you advocate speaking out in ignorance?

Jorge

Jobar · 07-17-2003, 08:40 AM

Jorge, you know nothing of what I have read and studied about the Bible. In fact I have read more (as a long-time moderator of this forum) concerning religion and the Bible than many priests. Even so, I have less Biblical knowledge than some of our regular members and moderators; go to our Biblical Criticism forum and you can meet them. By and large, the conclusions they have reached are very close to my own.

You are appealing to authority- yet so far you have not named one single example of someone you think is capable of properly interpreting the Bible. Do this; go to BC&H forum, and name one or more theologians who you find to be wise. You will then be answered by people who have read your Biblical scholar, and have his (most such are male) errors spelled out in simple terms for you.

[moderator hat on]
Much of this thread belongs in BC&H. I do not want to have to split the thread, as there are some posts very relevant to Existence of God(s) mixed in to the flow of this conversation; however, I strongly urge everyone to carry their arguments on Biblical infallibility to the appropriate forum.
[mod hat off]

07-17-2003, 07:03 AM	#103
Jorge Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 208	Re: Re: Clear contradiction... really? Originally posted by BioBeing What a way to avoid the question! Is this your personal definition of "avoiding the question"? Aurguments of your type are pointless too, you know. "Take two of these pills and call me when you can read the bible my way" is what you are saying. Arrogant and offensive is what i say. And possibly the fallacy of aurgument ad authoritarium. Wrong on both counts, BioBeing. Why do you think that is? God's own work, his one tome to mankind, and you have to have a PhD to read it? Kind of an important book to make quite so obtuse, isn't it? Ahhh... the sweet sounds of ignorance. And what do you say Jorge, to the Bible scholars who are atheists? Simple question, simple answer: Satan himself knows the Bible cover-to-cover. Heck, he even tried to deceive none other than Christ by employing Scripture in a deceptive manner. The point is that knowledge of God's word is not the key, rather it is a heart-filled acceptance and a submission to the authority of His word that shows us how we stand with Him. Knowledge of God's word is merely a foundation. The Bible scholars you speak of are simply headed for an unpleasant future. Better to never have known Him than to know Him and then reject Him. Of course, while they live they have the opportunity for a genuine repentance and return to God's family. There's your answer, BioBeing. Jorge

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07-17-2003, 06:44 AM	#101
beth Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: where orange blossoms bloom... Posts: 1,802	SOTC, did you get my PM? ~Beth

07-17-2003, 06:47 AM	#102
Jorge Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 208	Originally posted by Jobar I want to quote something from one of our regular members; bd-from-kg posted this several months ago: <................................> This cuts to the heart of our disbelief in the Bible; it is so very obviously the product of humans- yet you believers claim that it is the "Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God"! To us that simply seems laughable- until we remember that less than three hundred years ago people were burned at the stake for so laughing. Men, not God, wrote the Bible; men, not God, name it holy. Just like the Koran, and the Book of the Dead, and umpty-ump other documents supposedly handed down from on high, not a single word is from any god. I understand your position. However... Anyone that has studied formal systems knows that the worthiness of the conclusion is directly proportional to the worthiness of the premise. The conclusion that you people arrive at regarding the Bible is no exception. Your conclusion regarding the Bible is completely erroneous on the grounds that your premise - and this includes the poor quality and/or the lack of knowledge in this matter - is woefully inadequate. I am forced to remind you once again that even a person such as myself - hardly what anyone would consider a scholar in these areas - has conducted umpteen times more serious study of the evidence than you have. Just imagine, if you can, what the countless people that have dedicated most of their lives to this study know about this subject. I've studied much of the works of these people and it is... staggering! I know that the above may come across as an 'appeal to authority' but what it is is a fact. What I'm saying in as nice a way as I can muster is that you are simply ignorant of what you're saying. Also, allow me to remind you that being ignorant is not being stupid - ignorance is merely a state of 'not knowing', it has a remedy. The way I see it you have in essence two options: Stop 'blasting' the Bible until you become better educated in the matter (this includes asking questions in a scholarly fashion) OR continue 'blasting' away at the Bible with all sorts of allegations even though deep down inside you know that you really don't know what you're talking about. The choice is yours. Jorge

07-17-2003, 08:08 AM	#106
contracycle Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,425	What misconceptions? Plenty of atrocities and brutality in the OT. "It will yet be the proud boast of women that they never contributed a line to the Bible." George W. Foote

07-17-2003, 08:40 AM	#110
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Jorge, you know nothing of what I have read and studied about the Bible. In fact I have read more (as a long-time moderator of this forum) concerning religion and the Bible than many priests. Even so, I have less Biblical knowledge than some of our regular members and moderators; go to our Biblical Criticism forum and you can meet them. By and large, the conclusions they have reached are very close to my own. You are appealing to authority- yet so far you have not named one single example of someone you think is capable of properly interpreting the Bible. Do this; go to BC&H forum, and name one or more theologians who you find to be wise. You will then be answered by people who have read your Biblical scholar, and have his (most such are male) errors spelled out in simple terms for you. [moderator hat on] Much of this thread belongs in BC&H. I do not want to have to split the thread, as there are some posts very relevant to Existence of God(s) mixed in to the flow of this conversation; however, I strongly urge everyone to carry their arguments on Biblical infallibility to the appropriate forum. [mod hat off]

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