Jobar

David Payne, I fear that the Black Knight has risen again, and his arms and legs seem to have magically reattached themselves. But don't worry, I think they are just stuck on with Velcro, so I expect you will have no trouble slicing them off again.

David M. Payne

Just saw this, have to go do some work, but "I'll be back."

David

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]</p>

David M. Payne

OK, lets see what we can do with this, my replies will be in (this form.)

Originally posted by Peter E Faulkner:

Perhaps some of the other theists here will pick up the "terrible swift sword" and smite us unbelievers here. One can only hope that they really have the conviction of their religious beliefs. We will see. David Payne

Good day David,

I hope you'd concur with me, as a former soldier it would be proper for a soldier to hit the ground before his weapon through neglect did.

I like to consider that the sound of a sword being drawn from the sheath, as sobering and qui vive.

Isa 9:5 For every battle of the warrior [is] with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but [this] shall be with burning [and] fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

( Nice attempt to get that soldier to soldier thing going, as well as tossing in a bible quote, but really it's not germane to this thread. So lets move on the meat of your concerns.)

Also may I comment on your stereotypical use of theists. I've found the term theists as somewhat conflicting, considering the wide range of folks and the associated beliefs/facts they can hold. For example, theists who worshiped the goddess Diana are/were at spiritual odds with God and His son Jesus, as seen in verse, therefore to lump both together as a collective group of theists with a similar stereotypical stance would be travesty of accuracy.

I would suggest you be more specific in identifying believers with their goddess or God, by reason that I could deny the existence (read as atheist) of the goddess Diana.

( I do refer to all forms of theistic belief and practice, and I will lump them all together. The root problem with them all is the belief in some sort of God and religion, and that removes one from the need to focus on reality and deal with it. This is the problem that is going to consume the world, or at least mankind in the long (or short) run, in my opinion. Opinion by the way is what we are dealing with here, you get to give yours, I give mine, other people give theirs, and the readers decide who makes the most sense. Let me give you a tip about bible quotes here, they don't impress us at all. As the members of the atheist/agnostic side view them in much the same light as any other works of fiction, perhaps an interesting read, but in the end full of sound and fury and signifying nothing much of relevance to reality.) (My apologies to the bard.)


Having done a search in verse for "terrible swift sword" I was unable to locate such a reference in verse. I take it you are referring to the following;

Heb 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword , piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

( As far as I can recall, this was from some hymn or something from my youth when I was involved in some religion or other, Mormon or catholic, and it has no significance to this thread, so lets move on.)


"God drowns everyone but Noah and his family for their "corruption". OK, what sin and corruption did the babies and little children of these people, or for that matter the animals on this planet, commit? None. " David Payne

"Isn't it time to put the religious fables away and pursue our evolutionary path into the future?"David Payne

So David I need you to clarify your position, are you (1)accusing God of mass murder, or are you (2)accusing that God does not exist therefore did not commit mass murder in the flood?

( Well, I have covered this before, but it was a long time ago in a galaxy far far… uh, never mind. Anyway, if your God existed, as you contend he does, he would have to be considered the most efficient purveyor of genocide ever. I mean he would have eliminated the entire human race save one family, genocide doesn’t get any more efficient than that. Well OK, he could have killed everyone, but then we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? (A little joke there.) So, Hitler, Stalin and Mao, eat your hearts out you pikers. As to whether he was the biggest mass murderer ever, well census figures are hard to come by for that time period, so the big three may have killed more people than your God was "reported" to have dispatched.

As to your second point, I am saying that he doesn’t exist, and the flood is, like your God, a myth. So no, in the end your God isn't the biggest mass murderer of all time because he is a myth, and as such is incapable of any action at all. But as a symbol that is believed to be real by billions of people, what a terrible example he sets. Is genocide the only option, or even the best option, this omnipotent being has when confronted with behavior he finds objectionable? Murder the entire human race for the sin of corruption? Your God could theoretically do anything he wanted to change the behavior of humanity, and the only thing he can think of is kill them all? Not very imaginative I think. However it looks like some who believe in him, past, present and future, have/are ready to follow his example as far as mass murder is concerned. I view this as bad for humanities long-term survival, and this is the real danger in the God/religion Biz. So I do what I can to persuade people to move away from this kind of fantasy God/religion thing, and accept the fact that humanity must deal with what is real. There are many others here and throughout the world that do the same thing. We can only hope that humanity will see the light, and it won't be the light of a few hundred nukes set off by some doomsday cult/country trying to do Gods work for him by eliminating us infidels, and everyone else in the process.)


"Humanity must use logic, reason and the rule of manmade laws to craft our future, not religious teachings that can be interpreted any way those in power want to interpret them.David Payne

I'm beginning to suspect you are in violation of your own precepts.

Thanks, Peter E Faulkner

(I like my precepts just fine Pete. In the end, you put up your best stuff, I put up mine, everybody else who is interested puts up theirs, and we let the readers decide who makes the most sense. I like our chances. By the way, if you find this thread annoying, wait until you see what's coming next.)

Your welcome, David

[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]</p>

Peter Edward Faulkner

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]</p>

abe smith

Responding to the initial qy @ this thread: IMO "god" is the biggest damn nothing-at-all of all time. &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; "Your 'god' is a human fiction."

David M. Payne

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Edward Faulkner:
Thanks David for your attempt to clarify your position.

To reiterate,

1) You know there is no God, and the related events are myths.

No Peter, I am a very strong agnostic, so I do allow for the possible existence of some sort of God. See <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=105" target="_blank">here</a> for an example. As far as the Abrahamic God is concerned, you can call me a strong atheist. How about you, are you a strong atheist as far as say, the God Zeus is concerned? I’ll bet you are.

1a) Accusations of mass murder are intended as serious to only those who have faith in God.

Yes.

2)You know that others have faith in God, which can be potentially damaging to the rest of humanity.

Yes, history has shown us that every war is either about God/religion, or has them as some kind of motivational factor for one or both sides.

2) You endeavor to eradicate the faith of those by sound and logical persuasion.

If you mean to help free the minds of those that are held in the grip of these superstitions, yes, but I don't expect it to happen any time soon. I will be long dead before humanity is free of this kind of nonsense, but I will do what I can for now to aid the process. As do almost all here with their arguments. That is what the Sec-Web is for, a drop of reason in a pool of confusion. Drop by drop we hope to get reason into the minds of those trapped by superstition.

3) You like your chances of been right in these matters.

Yes.


I'd say you've got an uphill battle in your logical, reasonable attempts to craft man made laws apart from religious teachings to shape the future.

Yes, it is defiantly up hill, but I've got news for you, all religious teachings come from religious writings, and all of them are man made. Nowhere does an example of any religious tract written directly by God's hand exist, does it? So we have been following the morality of mankind all along, in my view.

Guess that sort of leaves you between God and Satan and the respective followers of each, fortunately for you, you know both God and Satan are myths which should help you out psychologically even though you cannot prove factually they don't exist.

And you can't prove that Baal in the link I gave you above doesn’t exist either, so what? Theists believe in superstition, we don't. So we have a difference of opinion. I like logic when looking at the problems of religion, you like faith. Take this for example; God's son has been coming back for over two thousand years now, but he hasn't made it yet. What happened, did he lose his map? Did the Son of God get lost, assuming he could literally tear himself away from his father and the Holy Ghost. Can anyone believe that story? I think not, at least not logically. That's the difference between you and I.

I read a couple thousand year old quote last night that struck a note;

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


It would appear thousands of years after this quote, this witness of the Kingdom has made it to your corner of the world, and you've thoroughly rejected it.

This is the kind of nebulas crap that theists use to justify this or that belief, stand or action. You may as well say "gobolly gook ga ga," for all the effect it will have on those with free minds. You take the bible as the word of God, I take it as the word of various unknown men. Men with an agenda, an agenda designed most likely to gain and hold power, in the name of God of course.

You could reject that it is still been preached in all the world but that wouldn't look good on your desire to be logical and reasonable.

This statement is meaningless to me, sorry.

Thanks, Peter Edward Faulkner

Your welcome, David M. Payne

PS, Bob's coming, bon appetite!

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: David M. Payne ]</p>

Peter Edward Faulkner

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]</p>

David M. Payne

[b] Sure, after you die, you cease to exist. Or to put it another way, your soul, as you like to call it, drains away much like the energy in a battery that has lost its charge. Hope that clears things up for you. If you need more answers, check with Bob, he'll be coming soon to a web site near you.

David

Peter Edward Faulkner

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]</p>

Peter Edward Faulkner

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]</p>