BigJim

In another thead, we wandered a bit of topic, and this question came up:

Now, I'm fairly certain there's no biblical support for purgatory (or Limbo), those were made up by the Catholic church, but where does the bible specify whether the deceased ascend straight to heaven, or whether they wait around for the return? Are there conflicting passages?

NOGO

Jesus goes out of his way to prove that he was not a ghost, i.e. a disembodied soul.
Why?
My guess is that people in those days believed in ghosts and that they were simply associated with the dead. People died and went down to sheol. It was probably believed that the spirit of these people lingered on on earth for a while. To be taken seriously Jesus had to have a body. You and I would have settled for a disembodied soul but not in those days.

I will skip over the THREE NIGHTS which did not happen. Notice "in the heart of the earth". This is sheol.

So the incorruptible body was taken into heaven.

Notice "weed out of his kingdom".
This is the earth which is called his kingdom.

So, the earth is a place where people with their incorruptible bodies will dwell.

Then there is the Our Father ...

Matthew 6
9 'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

So the kingdom implies that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So the kingdom of God is also on earth.

Conclusion

It seems to me that a disembodied soul which survives death and an incorruptible body which is immortal are two solutions to the same problem, i.e. our mortality.

If you believe that we will spend eternity as disembodied souls then there is no need for a an incorruptible body.

If you believe that we will resurrect into an incorruptible body then some or all of us will live here on earth.

Why does an immortal soul in the image of God need a body?
Why does an incorruptible and immortal body need a soul?

In both Daniel 12:13 and 1 Cor 15:51 there is simply no hint of any disembodied soul.

Daniel 12:13
"But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If we are to believe the Gospels Jesus resurrected in an incorruptible body. His disciples were able to touch him. He ate fish. He went out of his way to prove that he was not a ghost and then rose to heaven. Strange, that means he is currently the only material being up there, with the possible exception of Elijah.

NOGO

I believe that Limbo is Sheol.

As far as ascending straight to heaven we have ...

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

This is however strange. Jesus says that they will both be in paradise TODAY. Yet he also said that he will be in heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Also he tell Mary Mag not to touch him for he did not go to the father yet. Also he ascends into heaven 40 days after his resurrection.

Pillipians 1 21:24
For to me (Paul), to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

This however may be later thinking since it conflicts with 1 Corithian 15.

Talulah

It is hard for anyone to say what the bible actually teaches about where a person goes when they die. When reading the entire bible and not picking and choosing the verses that support whichever belief system you were raised or have come to believe, you begin to see many different ideas spring forth, sometimes even in the same, book and chapter.

The Church of Christ, which I was raised in, does not believe in the rapture, a doctrine that states, to the best of my knowledge that the faithful will be taken up to heaven/the waiting place unaware and sinners will be left on the earth. (I am not sure what awaits those left behind, sorry, my rapture knowledge it a little shaky). Matthew 24:15-44 seems to support the idea of a rapture, but the most immediate problem seems to be verse 34, which states that all that is foretold will happen before all the people he is talking to have died. This is a rather sticky situation, and one that all Christians I have talked to have glossed over. It is useless to say that this refers to the kingdom of God, i.e. the church, as the Church of Christ teaches, because it obviously is referring to Jesus’ second coming. Something else I noticed is that those who talk of the rapture often talk of it being done quietly and secretly. Verse 30 and 31 seem to disprove that. These verses shoot really large holes in CoC theology and reading them carefully was a turning point in my deconversion.

Sorry for the divergence, The point I wanted to make with this, is that the bible says that the second coming should have already happened, soon after the time of Christ and that the writers of the bible preached and believed that the coming was imminent. Since we are talking about where people go after they die until the second coming of Christ, this seemed pertinent. Why there are so many people still holding on, waiting, is completely beyond me.

So, on to the real question. What does the bible say about where both the faithful and the unfaithful go until Christ comes again?

Luke 16:19-31 tells of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Verse 22-24 says

Verse 26 says

I would discount this as totally allegorical but a lot of Christians take every word at face value, so that is how I will deal with it. My bible had a reference to Matt 8:11, which says:

Ok, so there you have it. The good will go to Abraham’s bosom, which seems a place of comfort, and the bad will go to Hades, which seems to be a place of torment. There is a gulf between them that prevents the people therein from coming and going to one another. This answers some questions, but I have to wonder, is this the ‘REAL’ Heaven and Hell™?

I have some little handy dandy notes here that say that Hades (in Hebrew, Sheol) was originally the shadowy realm of the dead. It says that here it is referring to the place of eternal punishment for the wicked. It references to Isaiah 38.10. This just complicates matters unnecessarily so I won’t tell you what the verse says. You can look it up for yourself if you are interested though.

Revelations has some very interesting things to say about death, Hades and Hell.
Speaking of the judgment:

More allegory? You be the judge. These verses seem to point to Hades being a place where the dead simply wait for the judgment that follows the second coming. The next verses talk of a new earth and a new heaven, because the old ones had been destroyed. “Also there was no more sea.”

The CoC says that Revelations 20:11-15 is literal and everything around it allegorical. I wonder how they came up with that.

I think we can make a pretty good case for Hades(Sheol) and Hell not being the same place. Or maybe Hades and Hell ARE the same place and the ‘Lake of Fire’ is something totally different. In any event, I don’t think that you can say that the bible teaches that those who die immediately go on to their final reward. Hades seems to be a place of torment, yes, but perhaps it pales in comparison to eternal torment. One main thing that leads me to this conclusion is the mention of the faithful dead being ‘with Abraham’ or ‘in Abraham’s bosom.’ This seems a nice place, a place of reward but there is no mention of God or Christ, both of whom are supposed to be in Heaven.

So, the bible teaches that people DO go somewhere after death, they don’t just stay in their graves. The DON’T go to heaven to be with God but they CAN be in a good, comfortable place. The holding place is NOT an indiscriminate place where all the dead are just heaped together. Purgatory and Limbo are a Catholic invention.

Perhaps it could be looked at as the first tier of the reward system.

Does it really matter? If anything, this study should convince you even more of the ridiculousness of believing a book that is rife with contradictions and absurd claims

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Talulah ]</p>

BigJim

Thanks Talulah, that was exactly the kind of analysis I was hoping for. And to answer your question, no it doesn't really matter, but it is interesting (to me) how different sects justify the different beliefs.