never been there

They're not just godspam, in any language. In France there has been an ongoing legal battle over head scarves being worn by students. Of course, the law there is essentially the same as in Turkey.

The French people I've asked about it are at least consistent. They agree that allowing students to wear crosses is in fact a double standard, but favour forbidding crosses over allowing hijab.

I suppose I'm too damned North American to go along with that. I find hijab offensive, but the sexism there is like the mote in my neighbour's eye. There is no moral difference between forbidding religious wear or requiring it, I might prefer the former but must oppose either.

avalanche:ix

don't you people read?

Educators rightly feel this infringes on communication both between students and between students and teachers.

fando

Upon reflection, I can make an exception for the Chador. It isn't that bad, just exotic. However, the Burqua is something that clearly conveys that women should be submissive. I agree that there is a matter of degree to be taken into consideration before condeming something against liberty or the standard notions of equality. I think the Burqa crosses that line, others in Holland believe it is the Chador.

Where do you draw the line?

I changed my mind, the Chador is nearly as wrong as the Burqua. To explain would require exposition, but it's on the level of explaining why the color red is associated with blood. I don't have time for that.

dk

• dk: What we witness in Europe is something else, much more dangerous. A grass roots anti-immigrant movement.
  avalanche:ix : simply not true.
  dk: Am I supposed to take your word for it, or what.
  o
• dk: The cause of the friction is the Islamic workforce recruited because Europe can’t raised enough children to keep the infrastructure running.
  avalanche:ix : the cause is a few populist politicians blaming immigrants, not the immigrants themselves.
  dk: I’m not sure “populist” conveys the correct sentiment, more like “opportunistic unethical politicians”, or perhaps even demagoguery. Opportunistic politicians are always quick to fan flames of passionate constituents to exploit some advantage, but they don’t start the fire. I didn’t blame immigrants, but the declining population of Europe.
  o
• avalanche:ix : further adding to the problem is a problem america has faced for a lot longer than we have: ghetto forming. Immigrants tend to band together in the choice of where to live, tend not to learn the local language and legal system, and thus tend to pass this uneducated existence of their surrounding on to their children, which in turn leads to an increase in crime. it's pretty simple really, this isn't a racist issue.
  dk: Immigrants in America, like everywhere else, flock together because they share a common culture and language in strange land. The American ghetto is but a ruminant of institutional slavery European merchants and blue bloods seeded, and US Robber Barons in a laissez-faire economy. The Irish, German, Italian, Asian, Greek and Slav immigrants may have settled in poverty, even bondage, but by their own virtue built became a vibrant productive working class. The northern and western states of the US by and large were spared from slavery, until elite opinion makers via the US Supreme Court ordered dejure segregation (1900s), and then as a remedy dejure integration (1960s). You’re the one with a rather short memory.
  o
• dk: There is nothing more permanent than temporary immigrant workers and Muslims are prolific. Russian and European. Indigenous people under the stress of slow world economy have suddenly become conscious of their inadequacies, and resentful of the new recruits that seem to be taking over their countries This is exactly what happened after WW I when the boom of the1920s turned into the bust of the 1930s, only it was Jews from across Europe and Russia immigrating to Germany. I think this has the potential to become a major problem in the decades to come.
  avalanche:ix : and you're simply wrong about the causes of this 'problem', not to mention the severity, or lack thereof.
  dk: If I am simply wrong, then you should be able to set me straight with a simple rebuttal. The fact is I’m not simply wrong because the dynamics aren’t simple but like people very complex.
  avalanche:ix : It's true that there is a general intolerance of high religiosity, but the same is true for heavy christians in europe, it's not directed at islam, just those religions or strains of religion that breed intolerance and impact society and individuals in a negative manner.
  dk: So your defense alleges secular Europe has adopted broad hostile intentions towards all religions, not just Islam. The defense violates the very precepts of a tolerant diverse society with a fanatical secular model. .
  o
• avalanche:ix :i'm becoming quite annoyed with americans who think they can comment on the european situation based on a few sparse media reports. the truth is that this is not much of a problem, the 'problem' is magnified and focuses upon by media, both in europe and across, if we look at the stats and actual public opinion, it's not a problem.
  dk: And I’m tired of the French and Germans trading weapons (potential) technology for oil rights.

dk

Oh, I understand, so you think governments should oppress liberty for liberty, and deny one group freedom, so that another group can be free. Should we also murder people to save them from becoming murders or Starve people to save them from famine or Withhold medical services so society won't run short of medicine. You crack me up.

avalanche:ix

since i live in europe and you don't: yes.



and thus you assume that it's always possible in every age in every culture to come out of it, how naieve. i've seen your ghetto's, i can only hope that's not how bad it's going to become here.


nonsense, we tolerate the mild expressions of religion, not the crazy whacko's, but then, neither do you. it's just that religion is seen as somewhat....primitive and obsolete by most people here. do you disagree with us?



as opposed to americans aiding future 'axis of evil dictators' with weapons and training? my, what a double standard you employ.

fando

So instead of answering my question, you want to antagonize and mock me? Please keep yourself civil. I have no desire to carry this on, but because I hope that something may come of it, I'll address the content of your post rather than the flame:

Your position is clearly one that we shouldn't suppress any freedoms because that runs contrary to the idea of liberty in the first place. This is a legitimate argument, but it has nothing to do with my position on the Burqua and Chador, which is much more subtle and deep. Before I get into that, I wish to point out one flaw in your position: liberty is not anarchy. Our personal liberties end where everyone elses begin. Liberty is a balance such that the entire community exists in a state of maximum freedom. It would not exist if we could not enforce the balance. The question becomes, what is this balance, and to what extent do we enforce it? To bemoan this pragmatic attitude as 'oppressing' liberty for the sake of liberty is both incorrect and reactionary. Would you sit idly by as the political elite proclaim that freedom of religion implies tax breaks and federal funding for churches? To disagree would be 'oppressing' liberty for the sake of liberty! Oh no, whatever shall we do?

As for the Burqua and Chador, these pieces of cloth are symbolic with clear meanings. The message that they convey is one born of a culture of injustice and inequality towards women with respect to men. To wear the Burqua and Chador is to support the notion that women must be subservient to men. That is the whole intent behind these garments: they are religiously inspired billboards for particular social principles--unjust and unequal principles. It's fine to let people choose to subjugate themselves in a free society on principle, but how the heck are we supposed to accept the hypocrisy of a free and equal society when people choose to support things which run counter to freedom and equality? What do we do about it, if we do anything?

I'm prone to changing positions upon reflection, and I've decided that, as an optimist, I don't think we should worry about the Burqua and Chador because eventually, exposure to the greater liberties and equalities enjoyed by women will entice those who wear them to discard them. It might take time and several generations, but I'm inclined to believe that a culture of liberty and equality motivates people to embrace these philosophies and practices universally. In other words, my answer to my initial question has changed: Do nothing because in the end, liberty prevails.

dk

o

• dk: Am I supposed to take your word for it, or what.
  avalanche:ix:
  since i live in europe and you don't: yes.
  dk: I’m honored to hear the voice of Europe speak, so are you Avalanche IX King of Europe?
  o
• dk: Immigrants in America, like everywhere else, flock together because they share a common culture and language in strange land. The American ghetto is but a ruminant of institutional slavery European merchants and blue bloods seeded, and US Robber Barons in a laissez-faire economy. The Irish, German, Italian, Asian, Greek and Slav immigrants may have settled in poverty, even bondage, but by their own virtue built became a vibrant productive working class.
  avalanche:ix: and thus you assume that it's always possible in every age in every culture to come out of it, how naieve. i've seen your ghetto's, i can only hope that's not how bad it's going to become here.
  dk: I don’t assume anything, and I agree the Great Society failed miserably to cure poverty, racism, sexism or the ghetto. The Great Society inexplicitly widened the chasm between rich and poor in America by squeezing the middle class like tube of toothpaste.
  o
• dk: So your defense alleges secular Europe has adopted broad hostile intentions towards all religions, not just Islam. The defense violates the very precepts of a tolerant diverse society with a fanatical secular model.
  avalanche:ix:
  nonsense, we tolerate the mild expressions of religion, not the crazy whacko's, but then, neither do you. it's just that religion is seen as somewhat....primitive and obsolete by most people here. do you disagree with us?
  dk: I believe strongly in religious liberty, but recognize my liberty ends where the reasonable freedom of others begins. I just don’t find hypocrisy to be a reasonable description of freedom or liberty.
  o
• dk: And I’m tired of the French and Germans trading weapons (potential) technology for oil rights.
  avalanche:ix: as opposed to americans aiding future 'axis of evil dictators' with weapons and training? my, what a double standard you employ.
  dk: Truth be told, I don’t blame Germany, France or Russia for protesting a US unilateral war with Iraq. In fact I think they do the world a great service. This whole concept of preemptive strikes against evil dictators needs clarification. I think terrorism presents an eminent threat to the world, world peace and every person that lives in a free democratic republic. The only people terrorism doesn’t threaten live under totalitarian nations that own the media. The problem I have is that terrorism isn’t being condemned as a crime against humanity, but blamed on religion fundamentalism. Anarchists and communists were teaching terrorist doctrines dating back to the French Revolution. In my opinion the Cold War had NATO and the WARSAW pact courting terrorists and evil dictators. Islamic terrorists have learned to exploit Europe, Asia and the US corruption and hypocrisy, and they were taught by European, Asian and US opinion makers from the 1960-1990s Its no secret who armed the PLO, IRA, Afghan freedom fighters, Contra freedom fighters, Pol Pot,,, etc... We need only look to home grown secular terrorists like ELF, ALF, G8 Summit, WTO Summit, Tim McVeighs,,, etc... to see opportunistic politicians, opinion makers and media fanning the flames of terror. The US media puts Islamic Malcolm X, Weatherman, Black Panthers, Chicago Seven and the SDS up on a pedestal with Martin Luther King and John & Robert Kennedy. Britain, France and Germany have all had their economies held hostage to labor union strikes in the last few years. The problem of political terror runs a lot deeper than Europe or the US cares to admit.

avalanche:ix

yes, actually.



reasonable freedom? what would you consider to be reasonable freedom? to be able to wear full body covering which completely destroys any possibility of normal communication between teachers and students (and even students and students) in a classroom? if a non-religious kid can't wear a baseball cap in class, then a religious girl can't wear a chador in class, simple as that, we can't make exceptions for religion.


oh come on, terrorism has been with us since ages, but it's only *now* become a problem? terrorism is not a significant threat to the world, to world peace or every person in a democracy. you stand a higher chance of being run over by an old lady without her glasses on driving to get her monday groceries than you do being blown up by a suicide bomber. let's make a pre-emptive strike against old ladies with cars! yeah! that'll show 'em! come on, you can't possibly be more of a propaganda mesmorized bushie thinking terrorism to actually be relevant in countries other than say, israel. oh, so you've had a big terrorist attack huh? welcome to the human race, we've all had to deal with things like bombs dropping on our own country, terrorists blowing themselves up in shopping malls, etc etc. it doesn't justify pre-emptive strikes or the stripping of civil rights to promote a false sense of security. take a fucking chance, terrorism is exciting! the idea that walking into an airport can get you killed is an exciting idea and it gives an ambiance to life that it's sorely lacking! take a fucking chance man.

Just Another Infidel

The Copenhagen Post

JAI