Thomas Metcalf

Originally posted by Plump-DJ:\

"Just out of curiosity do you accept the cosmological models which posit a beginning to the universe? That is all matter, energy, space and time 'came to be'?"

I don't think that's an accurate statement of it, because there was never a time at which the universe did not exist. I think everything in the universe has always existed, which is consistent with current Big Bang models.

"If a person argues successfully or makes a valid inductive argument that leads one to think Teleology is a real property of the universe, then the cause must account for that."

But remember, we can't necessarily conclude that whether caused the universe also designed it, just caused what looks like design. There's a difference, because only the former involves intention and real teleology.

"It's more then that. It's eternal and it's transcedent to this finite derived universe and this just happens to mirror the basic position of the theist for the last 2500 years."

The basic position of the theist is far more than this.

"If you accept the universe began (Power) and that it contains design (Intellect) then you've only got 1 option. God."

Non sequitur. And all it takes to create the universe in the first place is to be able to create a singularity -- in fact, even this doesn't make sense, because the singularity never "didn't exist." So I can't even accept that anyone created the universe. To cause the universe, all we need is some mindless cause, and whether there actually is design in the universe is under discussion below.

"I don't think your analogy relates to the situation we find ourselves in in this universe. Given the card example -- if you got it once, i wouldn't care less. If you got it again, i would start to smell a rat. If you got it again, i would be certain you were cheating despite my lack of any independant evidence. (ie seeing you swap cards or something) I don't need independant evidence and i don't think anyone would state that I do to infer that 'somfin else waz goin on'."

Well, of course -- that's my whole point. We would definitely suspect cheating in the case of cards, because we already know someone's in a position to cheat and has the motivation to cheat. We don't know that in the case of the universe. So the analogy fails.