Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Carrie · 04-10-2003, 10:06 AM

My Christian friend told me:

That the "darkness" that came over the land when Jesus died on the cross, actually happened.

She said that astronomers and "others" have proven that about 2000 years ago, the sky was darkened.

She said that this fact was all over the news several years ago.

Does anyone know what she's talking about? Who claimed this, and when, if ever, was it on the news?

Mageth · 04-10-2003, 10:11 AM

Did you ask her to provide a source?

beth · 04-10-2003, 10:14 AM

I've heard explanations that there was a total eclipse. I cannot verify that. It would make sense, though that the story of the sky darkening would be passed down through oral tradition. It would also make sense for people to interpret a natural event as an act of a divine being.

Beetle · 04-10-2003, 10:14 AM

One of the things that has led to my increasing detachment from christianity is the number of implausible astronomical miracles that didn't seem to be noticed by anybody else.

As far as I know, there are no independent verifications of wacky darknesses, or the sun standing still in the sky all afternoon, or glowing, stationary stars in spite of the fact that many ancient peoples spent a rather large amount of time gazing at the heavens (apparently there wasn't much else to do)

I'm not sure how an astronomer could prove that the sky mysteriously darkened for a few hours 2,000 years ago. An historian might, but how could an astonomer unless the phenomenon was repeatable (and if it's repeatable, how is it a miracle?)

Flynn McKerrow · 04-10-2003, 10:15 AM

Astronomers actually have proven not only that the sky grew dark about 2000 years ago, but that it does so on a daily basis.

philechat · 04-10-2003, 10:15 AM

That is not true at all. See Giddon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman empire, chapter 15, which had a detailed discussion about the supposed "eclipse" happened during the Passion. Giddon noticed that:

1. If the eclipse happened, it would have been an unusual astronomical event and frightened the Romans into mass hysteria.

2. The philosophers of the time, especially famous ones like Seneca and Pliny the Elder, did not record the eclipse, while they had detailed records of other scientific observations such as volcanoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.

3. They, however, recorded the slight "dimming" of the sun following Caesar's death, which was a small phenomenon compared to a full-scaled eclipse.

4. It is impossible that Seneca and Pliny the Elder noticed the slight "dimming", while dismissing the more dramatic events of the eclipse.

Demigawd · 04-10-2003, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Flynn McKerrow
Astronomers actually have proven not only that the sky grew dark about 2000 years ago, but that it does so on a daily basis.

LOL! :notworthy

Mageth · 04-10-2003, 10:46 AM

This page lists some historical solar eclipses. There are two listed occurring about the time of Jesus' crucifixion, one on Nov 24, 29 and one on Mar 19, 33. There are links to maps (which are of poor quality) and tables showing the paths.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the site, but it seems pretty detailed.

The first eclipse seems to be at about the right year and in the right place but doesn't match the time of year of the crucifixion (being in November), and the second one may be the wrong year (if Jesus was born about 4 BC, as many historians believe), but seems to be at the right time of year (March). However, its path isn't correct to account for a darkening of the sky above Jerusalem (max eclipse was off the SE coast of Africa).

Biff the unclean · 04-10-2003, 11:01 AM

Even a total eclipse of the sun lasts only a few minutes, not hours. They usually are not accompanied by earthquakes and zombies leaving their graves and roaming the streets either.

It might be of some interest to note the Greek Tragedy Prometheus Bound by Aeschylus. Although in the original myth Prometheus is chained to a rock for the stage version he was chained to a cross. That way the patrons in the back rows could see the action, and the props were less expensive. The play had a "special effect" because when Prometheus was bound "darkness would cover the land." This was accomplished by all the torches in the theater being extinguished simultaneously on cue. It wow-ed them in Athens!!

lpetrich · 04-10-2003, 11:33 AM

Mageth's site is correct. I remember doing a similar search with some eclipse-mapping software -- and finding essentially what Mageth had found. No total solar eclipse near Jerusalem in those years at the right time of year.

And has anyone read the original of Prometheus Bound? I'm worried that Biff the Unclean may be too zealous in seeking pagan parallels for the Jesus Christ story. After finding that Mithraism does not have much in common with Xianity other than some commonplace rituals (eating a sacred meal) and mythical motifs (miraculously-conceived hero).

04-10-2003, 10:06 AM	#1
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	Did the sky go dark when Jesus died? My Christian friend told me: That the "darkness" that came over the land when Jesus died on the cross, actually happened. She said that astronomers and "others" have proven that about 2000 years ago, the sky was darkened. She said that this fact was all over the news several years ago. Does anyone know what she's talking about? Who claimed this, and when, if ever, was it on the news?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-10-2003, 10:11 AM	#2
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Did you ask her to provide a source?

04-10-2003, 10:14 AM	#3
beth Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: where orange blossoms bloom... Posts: 1,802	I've heard explanations that there was a total eclipse. I cannot verify that. It would make sense, though that the story of the sky darkening would be passed down through oral tradition. It would also make sense for people to interpret a natural event as an act of a divine being.

04-10-2003, 10:14 AM	#4
Beetle Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Massachusetts State Home for the Bewildered Posts: 961	One of the things that has led to my increasing detachment from christianity is the number of implausible astronomical miracles that didn't seem to be noticed by anybody else. As far as I know, there are no independent verifications of wacky darknesses, or the sun standing still in the sky all afternoon, or glowing, stationary stars in spite of the fact that many ancient peoples spent a rather large amount of time gazing at the heavens (apparently there wasn't much else to do) I'm not sure how an astronomer could prove that the sky mysteriously darkened for a few hours 2,000 years ago. An historian might, but how could an astonomer unless the phenomenon was repeatable (and if it's repeatable, how is it a miracle?)

04-10-2003, 10:15 AM	#5
Flynn McKerrow Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: surrounded by fundies Posts: 768	Astronomers actually have proven not only that the sky grew dark about 2000 years ago, but that it does so on a daily basis.

04-10-2003, 10:15 AM	#6
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	That is not true at all. See Giddon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman empire, chapter 15, which had a detailed discussion about the supposed "eclipse" happened during the Passion. Giddon noticed that: 1. If the eclipse happened, it would have been an unusual astronomical event and frightened the Romans into mass hysteria. 2. The philosophers of the time, especially famous ones like Seneca and Pliny the Elder, did not record the eclipse, while they had detailed records of other scientific observations such as volcanoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. 3. They, however, recorded the slight "dimming" of the sun following Caesar's death, which was a small phenomenon compared to a full-scaled eclipse. 4. It is impossible that Seneca and Pliny the Elder noticed the slight "dimming", while dismissing the more dramatic events of the eclipse.

04-10-2003, 10:46 AM	#8
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	This page lists some historical solar eclipses. There are two listed occurring about the time of Jesus' crucifixion, one on Nov 24, 29 and one on Mar 19, 33. There are links to maps (which are of poor quality) and tables showing the paths. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the site, but it seems pretty detailed. The first eclipse seems to be at about the right year and in the right place but doesn't match the time of year of the crucifixion (being in November), and the second one may be the wrong year (if Jesus was born about 4 BC, as many historians believe), but seems to be at the right time of year (March). However, its path isn't correct to account for a darkening of the sky above Jerusalem (max eclipse was off the SE coast of Africa).

04-10-2003, 11:01 AM	#9
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Even a total eclipse of the sun lasts only a few minutes, not hours. They usually are not accompanied by earthquakes and zombies leaving their graves and roaming the streets either. It might be of some interest to note the Greek Tragedy Prometheus Bound by Aeschylus. Although in the original myth Prometheus is chained to a rock for the stage version he was chained to a cross. That way the patrons in the back rows could see the action, and the props were less expensive. The play had a "special effect" because when Prometheus was bound "darkness would cover the land." This was accomplished by all the torches in the theater being extinguished simultaneously on cue. It wow-ed them in Athens!!

04-10-2003, 11:33 AM	#10
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Mageth's site is correct. I remember doing a similar search with some eclipse-mapping software -- and finding essentially what Mageth had found. No total solar eclipse near Jerusalem in those years at the right time of year. And has anyone read the original of Prometheus Bound? I'm worried that Biff the Unclean may be too zealous in seeking pagan parallels for the Jesus Christ story. After finding that Mithraism does not have much in common with Xianity other than some commonplace rituals (eating a sacred meal) and mythical motifs (miraculously-conceived hero).

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.