Detached9

I'm looking for some way to verify that Pontius Pilate existed, if Pilate did? If Pontius Pilate existed, I'm also looking for sources that give evidence for him crucifying Jesus. I found a mention of him crucifying Chrestus, which I heard may have been a common Greek name at the time.

Does anyone know a non-christian source on Pontius Pilate? Every encyclopedia I've found so far introduces him with, "As tradition tells us...", which to me isn't very convincing.

Toto

Pilate was mentioned in Josephus and Tacitus, and his name has been found on an archeological remain.

Try this:

<a href="http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/pilate_2.html" target="_blank">http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/pilate_2.html</a>

He undoubtedly crucified a number of people, some of whom were probably named Jesus. But there are no records. If there were, there wouldn't be such a dispute over whether Jesus existed or not.

Jayhawker Soule

Search engines are wonderful things ...
<a href="http://cedar.evansville.edu/~ecoleweb/articles/pilate.html" target="_blank">Pontius Pilate</a>

Layman

You give yourself and fellow hard-core skeptics way too much credit. There really is no "dispute over whether Jesus existed." And if the evidence available today--which has convinced almost every New Testament scholar around--hasn't convinced you of this, no other "records" would do so.

Detached9

You give yourself and fellow hard-core skeptics way too much credit. There really is no "dispute over whether Jesus existed." And if the evidence available today--which has convinced almost every New Testament scholar around--hasn't convinced you of this, no other "records" would do so.

Do share this evidence. Obviously it isn't self-evident to everyone.

Detached9

This is the closest "evidence" I found for Pilate crucifying Jesus.

Josephus, Antiquities of The Jews 18.63-64
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher
of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused
by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give
up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
(The Ecole Initiative. <a href="http://cedar.evansville.edu/~ecoleweb/articles/pilate.html)" target="_blank">http://cedar.evansville.edu/~ecoleweb/articles/pilate.html)</a>

Josephus oddly enough was a jewish historian. That is what first strikes me as odd. Why would a jewish historian write about Jesus being more than a man and performing miracles? Wouldn't that be evidence that Jesus wasn't a false prophet?

Josephus work obviously isn't an eye-witness account either. He was born around 37 A.D.; hearsay doesn't account for much.

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Detached9 ]</p>

Toto

That passage in Josephus is widely agreed to be at least partly forged, if not a complete forgery. Christians spent a lot of time forging writings alleged to be by Josephus.

Check out Peter Kirby's summary on his site, <a href="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/josephus.html" target="_blank">www.earlychristianwritings.com/josephus.html</a>

Vorkosigan

Pilate was also known to Philo, who was one of the people who petitioned the Emperor to have him removed for his unnecessary brutality. The Pilate of the gospels, wringing his hands before the jews, is a fantasy figure.

Here is an interesting discussion of Philo's writings on Pilate I found while trolling for Philo & Pilate links.
<a href="http://www.dabar.org/Atomic/menu/office/desk/Publication/Philo_on_Pilate.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.dabar.org/Atomic/menu/office/desk/Publication/Philo_on_Pilate.pdf</a>

This site has a pic of the inscription and a summary of Pilate's history. Informative.
<a href="http://www.bible-history.com/empires/pilate.html" target="_blank">http://www.bible-history.com/empires/pilate.html</a>
Michael

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]</p>

Vorkosigan

Hmmm....New Testament scholars from earlier in the century, looking at the same evidence, often concluded Jesus was a myth. Scholars from other countries and disciplines have also concluded Jesus was a myth. NT scholars are rather heavily invested in the historicity of Jesus, since most of them are Christians. Is it only NT scholars who get a say, or can scholars from other fields comment too?

Certainly the Jesus of the gospels is a fantasy; sadly, it is now impossible to say what relationship he bears to the underlying inspirations of the various traditions that are combined in the 40 or so gospels we have.

Michael

Haran

Here's something I don't think a lot of people have thought about...

Pilate and Josephus mention Pilate as being a cruel tyrant, hateful toward the Jews.

I find it possible and even plausible that Pilate was loving the incident with Jesus, the man who was claimed to be the "King of the Jews". I believe that it was entirely possible that Pilate played this for everything it was worth, crucifying Jesus with a sign over his head proclaiming Jesus' title! How he must have enjoyed the horror of the priests that wanted rid of him, though probably with much less of a humiliating public display. This sounds very much in keeping with Josephus' and Philo's view of Pilate.

As for the Gospels, the authors very well might have interpreted Pilate's actions as somewhat sympathetic to Jesus, whether this was the truth or not...

Haran

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]</p>