FairFiend

When recently thinking about the Cosmological Arguement I began wondering if God did create the universe, is that proof of His omnipotence or even proof of Him being all-knowing? I don't know if this question has been posed before, and if it has I would love to read the thread if someone could provide it with me.

My thinking was like this: Let's say the Big Bang theory is true and that black holes also exist. Both black holes and the initial state of the universe are said to be similar. I don't know the state of scientific knowledge about black holes are at this point, but I do know that we know some things about them. Theoretical physicists are already working on understanding how to unite all the forces in the universe. Is it impossible to imagine one day we'll understand how singularities function and how the universe began? And, let's say we figure out how the universe began (which doesn't preclude God from creating the universe) and that all we really have to do in order to create our own universe is to collapse a star in such a way as to create a black hole, throw in a few other ingredients, and presto. For all we know, creating a universe a thousand years from now may be no more impossible than people a thousand years ago thought going to the moon would be.

Therefore, does the existence of the universe really prove God is all-powerful and all-knowing in of itself?

oriecat

Nope, I don't think so. It could very well have been an accident. That would explain why he created it, but doesn't seem to know how to un-create it, what with it being the mess it is and all. (Well not the entire universe, that we know anyway, but certain parts of it...)

abe smith

Some-of-us's consensual agreement , that the Universe/Cosmos does exist, Out-There (whether any consciousness is around to observe it or not), HASN"T ANYTHING TO DO W/ the existence or non-existence of any "god", has it? E.g. Thos Aquinas's absolute *premise/axiom* is that "God(sic) exists." and then he had to scrounge about to confect some plausible persuasions to substantiate that all-important assertion>>>> w/o which all the/his subsequent assertions about All-That are standing on air.

1. This-here U. wh/ includes us (short-term) may be only-one of an innumerable number of dissimilar
Universes
which may be in-series w/ ours, or
which may exist simultaneouly w/ ours, or
which may "exist" in some mode totally-incomprehensible to us.
2. There is no necessity to believe that "the U.",or the series of wh/ it may be a part , has/have not existed forever.
3.This-here U. wh/ we for-an-instant observe a minute corner of may be constantly/eternally repeating.
.... and add any other possibilities you like.
Apart from that, I like to remind us that "God/the gods are human fictions." wh/ we,
so briefly here & now "make to ourselves".

quip

I don’t know if this is relevant to your question but there is a problem with respect to God being simultaneously omniscient and omnipotent. It states as thus:

If God is omniscient then he knows the effect of all causes, yet if he is omnipotent he is the cause of all existing causes and therefore to all their relative effects. So if God knows beforehand the effects of his causes then he logically is working within the parameters of deterministic fate. Which implies “something” unto which God is subject to, negating the concept of God’s omnipotence.

This argument has been (arguably) successfully debated, yet it does raise interesting questions.

JerryM

The existence of the universe logically conflicts with the idea of God being perfect. If God were indeed perfect in every way, there would be no need or reason for him to do anything at all, let alone create an entire universe.

Biff the unclean

There is a big, hugh, Evil Kenevil-ish leap in logic happening here.
We have the universe….okay.
We have the big bang…okay.
We don't know what caused the big bang…okay again.
Therefore there must be a God/creator….Huh!!! What??? Where did that come from?

How did we get from "I don't know" to a God?

If we look at our history we see that every last time we didn't know how something worked and we blamed it on a God (Where did that lightening come from? Thor did it.) we have always been wrong. Why would we expect a different result this time?
It has always turned out to have mundane causes. Always. Every cause to every effect that we have discovered has been a natural one. We have never come across an effect whose cause was supernatural. Never, not once. We have no idea if there even is a "supernatural."

Why would we drop our truthful claim of "we don't know," and change it to a claim from the bronze age? A claim that has proved wrong every time we have made it in the past. A claim based on the existence of a God we don't know about and a realm outside the natural that we have not the slightest hint exists.

You can't say that the beginning of the universe was caused by a God unless you first actually have a God, and once you have him, can prove that this was it's handy work.
You don't even know that creating is what Gods do.

That's two really big steps between I don't know and God.

Arvel Joffi

If the Universe formed from nothing we can detect X billion years ago, there must have been some force(s) responsible for it. That makes sense. Why it has to be an anthropomorphic deity, I don't know. Also, my statement above is linear thinking. The (seemingly random) forces that created the Universe not only created everything in it (on the atomic scale), but also created the goundrules which determined what kind of a Universe we ended up having. This includes time. Logically, to try to determine what was around before time is foolish. "Before time" is a nonsensical term, as is, therefore, trying what was around at the time "before time."

Human reasoning definitely has it's limits. Right now, thinking without reference to time isn't something we can do.

And the first theist that says, "God can," gets a punch in the smiley!