Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darth Dane · 04-11-2003, 09:38 AM

If God doesn't want to make us follow him, then why does he treaten us with eternal torture for not doing so?

Maybe God didn't do this. Maybe Humans did this, because humans wanted to take your freewil away from you.

Also, why would God need to eliminate suffering through us? Why not simply exclude it from his original design?

No pain, no pleasure
No dark, no light
No yin, no yang

God doesn't neeed anything, but he will give us whatever we want. "ask and you shall be be given"
But again we must ask, and asking also takes on the form of working on your own.

Maybe?

DD - Love Spliff

Selsaral · 04-11-2003, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane

SNIP

I appreciate your response Darth, and I respect your cool-headed demeanor, but I must say your comments sound just like a Scientologist telling me I need to take a personality test and learn about my body thetins, or someone telling me all about how it felt to get their most recent anal probe by the Neptune Men. No offense, but your reponses have absolutely no worth to me. To elaborate further would probably result in unintentional insults, and I strive to maintain the coolness you display.

Darth Dane · 04-11-2003, 10:16 AM

"Thinking the way Jesus thought" is an interesting challenge. Most of his teachings were not designed to bring his listeners to a one particular conclusion but simply to challenge them to begin thinking in the first place.

Jesus was not complimenting people when he called them sheep. He referred to himself as "the gate" to the sheep pen in one story. (John 10) How many sermons have I heard in which his followers are pictured as huddling in the pen while Jesus guards the gate protecting them? If anything, I think Jesus was encouraging his listeners to stop huddling, to escape out of the pen, and to look to him as an example of someone who dared to think for himself.

^^^By Glass*Soul

but I must say your comments sound just like a Scientologist telling me I need to take a personality test and learn about my body thetins, or someone telling me all about how it felt to get their most recent anal probe by the Neptune Men.

I am just asking questions, and giving answers that might fit, through you can I learn what is good ways to think and what is bad. I don't wanna tell you something, I wanna communicate with you. Through you I learn.

No offense, but your reponses have absolutely no worth to me. To elaborate further would probably result in unintentional insults, and I strive to maintain the coolness you display.

I doubt you can hurt my feelings.

If my answers are of no worth, then seek them elsewhere. I will ask to all your words as best I can.

DD - Love Spliff

Darkblade · 04-11-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Selsaral

I hope I understand the topic of this thread correctly.

IMHO if a god exists, then it surely created the universe to appear to humans as if it functions by natural means. If we're talking about the Christian god, he engineers this holy book to describe how he created everything, then left a LOT of contrary evidence around, obviously to fool us. Or he simply didn't make it clear enough that his holy book is all metaphor. Furthermore, the universe he created appears to us that it has come into existence and developed to its current state by purely natural means, and the evidence is so overwhelming as to convince even his die-hard followers (such as the Catholic church 'officially' accepting biological evolution as a fact). Essentially this makes him a trickster, by demanding belief in his existence as the ultimate test of your character (and threatening terrible punishment for the wrong choice), and then engineering the universe with intense care to appear as if it doesn't include him, and to make sure that any legitimate requests for actual concrete proof be considered too arrogant a request to ever be honored. Even further, he tricks us all by making humans innately religious/superstitious, so that the best human being ever born is doomed to fail his test simply by being born in the wrong society, because this person's religious nature produces a faith in the wrong religion that is equally strong to a legitimate believer's faith in the correct religion, thereby making it impossible to convert and be saved from damnation. Finally, this god can't make his true religion even 1% more credible or substantial than all the false religions, tricking athiests and the religious humans both.

:notworthy

Aka (in this instance) evil.

JCS · 04-11-2003, 10:50 AM

Quote:

God doesn't neeed anything, but he will give us whatever we want. "ask and you shall be be given"

I want and asked for an all expense paid vacation in the Bahamas, how long before I should start packing?

But wait, what is this?

Quote:

But again we must ask, and asking also takes on the form of working on your own.

So in reality I'm just asking for a trip that I have to work and pay for myself. So why waste the time asking when I should have just been working towards that goal as would be required anyway.

Darth Dane · 04-11-2003, 11:23 AM

So in reality I'm just asking for a trip that I have to work and pay for myself. So why waste the time asking when I should have just been working towards that goal as would be required anyway.

Yes, you need to work for it yourself.

"ask and yo shall be given"

It is probably twofold. One fold is that God will give you what you want.
Another fold is that when you give God what God wants, God will give you what you want.

See the synergy of the Law of God?

DD - Love Spliff

JCS · 04-11-2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

It is probably twofold. One fold is that God will give you what you want.

Let see if I understand this correctly. I want an all expense paid vacation in the Bahamas, and this "god" will give this to me after I have worked for the cash and earned the time off and made arrangements with a travel agent. Ok that is my part, what exactly is his contribution?

Quote:

Another fold is that when you give God what God wants, God will give you what you want.

Now you're saying that he isn't giving me what I want he is exchanging with me something for something. Why does a god have wants? Is he impoverished in some way?

Quote:

See the synergy of the Law of God?

No not at all. What you're suggesting is exactly what I would get without asking some postulated deity. I give my boss my time and effort and in return I get time and money to achieve what I want. The only thing your suggestion adds is a request to a postulation that requires me to continue exactly as before but intsead of crediting myself with the results I credit the postulation for giving me what I would have gotten anyway.
:banghead:

emotional · 04-11-2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HRG
Why is this a supernatural explanation ? Have you ever observed a supernatural person (i.e. someone whose mere will can circumvent natural mechanisms) ?

There is no reason why natural explanations cannot include natural intelligent beings, like us.

Regards,
HRG.

The OP was "if God then what can we deduce". I similarly reply in the case of the biscuit in the water-glass, "if human then what can we deduce". Think of the marvelous scientific theories and predictions that can be made out of the hypothesis that the biscuit evolved in the glass of water by natural processes! And in contrast, how the theory that a human being -- an indeterminate being -- put it there must be scientifically sterile! Yet no-one cries foul over such a hypothesis.

What I'm saying: it's not a scientific sin to hypothesise God. The hypothesis of God has the possibility of being true (and that would make it a part of science no matter the objections), and it does not obstruct further enquiry. I sympathise with methodological naturalism when it's carried out "because it works" (and I agree it works quite well); but I don't sympathise with a blind, philosophical commitment towards naturalism in science.

The hypothesis of "God did it" does in no way obstruct the further asking of "how did God do it" or "why did God do it". That questions should not be asked about God is a product of the political mind-manipulation of submission-based religions such as Christianity and Islam.

Darth Dane · 04-11-2003, 12:04 PM

Let see if I understand this correctly. I want an all expense paid vacation in the Bahamas, and this "god" will give this to me after I have worked for the cash and earned the time off and made arrangements with a travel agent. Ok that is my part, what exactly is his contribution?

God, could perhaps have stopped some storm before it would hit teh Bahamas thus making it impossible for you to go there. This you can't see.
God, could perhaps, have made sure, that the drunk driver that would other wise have hit you, fell asleep at the bar. This you can't see.

Now you're saying that he isn't giving me what I want he is exchanging with me something for something. Why does a god have wants? Is he impoverished in some way?

I don't know, it was just a possible way to understand it.
Edit: Why do you have wants?

They showed Jesus a gold piece and said to him: Caesar's men demand tribute from us. He said to them: What belongs to Caesar, give to Caesar; what belongs to God, give to God; and what is mine, give it to me. Gospel of Thomas (100)

No not at all. What you're suggesting is exactly what I would get without asking some postulated deity. I give my boss my time and effort and in return I get time and money to achieve what I want. The only thing your suggestion adds is a request to a postulation that requires me to continue exactly as before but intsead of crediting myself with the results I credit the postulation for giving me what I would have gotten anyway.

You need to work for the things you want, God can keep diseases away, give you good weather to work in, good soil to plant your seeds, no bugs to pester your harvest.

I dunno, how God works.

I see and experience.

DD - Love Spliff

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 04-11-2003, 12:12 PM

Angriillori,

An excellent question...

Quote:

Originally posted by Angrillori
I'm here thinking,

If there is a God, what CAN we deduce from this world?

Does the fact that it's given us no empirical evidence lead to any conclusions about its nature?
(To me this leads to the conclusion it is either powerless to provide such, or indifferent to our knowledge of its existence.)

The PoE certainly allows us to make some deductions (Not omnimax, for example.)

What else CAN we ascribe, if there is a God, with this universe around us.

IF 'God' THEN...

'God' is verifiably not evil...otherwise we would be suffering continually.

'God' values mankind's freedom more than 'God' dislikes the bad things that man might possibly do with this freedom...otherwise we wouldn't have freedom.

'God' (like you and me) is not concerned with being considered an objective fact to every person...otherwise God would be an objective fact to all.

'God' values the intentions of a man's heart more than 'God' values the contents of a man's mind...otherwise salvation would be based upon one's knowledge.

'God' forms relationships with those who truly want to know Him...otherwise everybody, even atheists would know God.

Here's an interesting thing to note: The picture of God you get playing the 'What IF God Game'...is exactly the picture of God the Bible paints.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

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04-11-2003, 09:38 AM	#21
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	If God doesn't want to make us follow him, then why does he treaten us with eternal torture for not doing so? Maybe God didn't do this. Maybe Humans did this, because humans wanted to take your freewil away from you. Also, why would God need to eliminate suffering through us? Why not simply exclude it from his original design? No pain, no pleasure No dark, no light No yin, no yang God doesn't neeed anything, but he will give us whatever we want. "ask and you shall be be given" But again we must ask, and asking also takes on the form of working on your own. Maybe? DD - Love Spliff

04-11-2003, 10:16 AM	#23
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	"Thinking the way Jesus thought" is an interesting challenge. Most of his teachings were not designed to bring his listeners to a one particular conclusion but simply to challenge them to begin thinking in the first place. Jesus was not complimenting people when he called them sheep. He referred to himself as "the gate" to the sheep pen in one story. (John 10) How many sermons have I heard in which his followers are pictured as huddling in the pen while Jesus guards the gate protecting them? If anything, I think Jesus was encouraging his listeners to stop huddling, to escape out of the pen, and to look to him as an example of someone who dared to think for himself. ^^^By GlassSoul but I must say your comments sound just like a Scientologist telling me I need to take a personality test and learn about my body thetins, or someone telling me all about how it felt to get their most recent anal probe by the Neptune Men. I am just asking questions, and giving answers that might fit, through you can I learn what is good ways to think and what is bad. I don't wanna tell* you something, I wanna communicate with you. Through you I learn. No offense, but your reponses have absolutely no worth to me. To elaborate further would probably result in unintentional insults, and I strive to maintain the coolness you display. I doubt you can hurt my feelings. If my answers are of no worth, then seek them elsewhere. I will ask to all your words as best I can. DD - Love Spliff

04-11-2003, 11:23 AM	#26
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	So in reality I'm just asking for a trip that I have to work and pay for myself. So why waste the time asking when I should have just been working towards that goal as would be required anyway. Yes, you need to work for it yourself. "ask and yo shall be given" It is probably twofold. One fold is that God will give you what you want. Another fold is that when you give God what God wants, God will give you what you want. See the synergy of the Law of God? DD - Love Spliff

04-11-2003, 12:04 PM	#29
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Let see if I understand this correctly. I want an all expense paid vacation in the Bahamas, and this "god" will give this to me after I have worked for the cash and earned the time off and made arrangements with a travel agent. Ok that is my part, what exactly is his contribution? God, could perhaps have stopped some storm before it would hit teh Bahamas thus making it impossible for you to go there. This you can't see. God, could perhaps, have made sure, that the drunk driver that would other wise have hit you, fell asleep at the bar. This you can't see. Now you're saying that he isn't giving me what I want he is exchanging with me something for something. Why does a god have wants? Is he impoverished in some way? I don't know, it was just a possible way to understand it. Edit: Why do you have wants? They showed Jesus a gold piece and said to him: Caesar's men demand tribute from us. He said to them: What belongs to Caesar, give to Caesar; what belongs to God, give to God; and what is mine, give it to me. Gospel of Thomas (100) No not at all. What you're suggesting is exactly what I would get without asking some postulated deity. I give my boss my time and effort and in return I get time and money to achieve what I want. The only thing your suggestion adds is a request to a postulation that requires me to continue exactly as before but intsead of crediting myself with the results I credit the postulation for giving me what I would have gotten anyway. You need to work for the things you want, God can keep diseases away, give you good weather to work in, good soil to plant your seeds, no bugs to pester your harvest. I dunno, how God works. I see and experience. DD - Love Spliff

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