Laci

My question regarding immigration rates is: What percentage of those people trying to move to Canada are US citizens?

About health care. I've never heard of anyone here in the USA going to Canada for better health care. Have you?

Undercurrent

There was actually quite a scandal in Ontario a few years back about americans from border sates being able to acquire ontario health cards and acquire free medical service. There was a substantial government crack-down on the practice.

Even today, there are debates going on in the states about the "reimportation" of canadian perscription drugs as a response to americans crossing the border to get them cheaper.

ex-idaho

Apparently there are thousands of Americans that travel to Canada every year for lazer eye surgery, so many in fact that doctors that perform this procedure in the states have begun running ads suggesting that it might not be safe.

People often point to the wait times in Canada for services, the US is no different. My girlfriend has to make an appointment with her OB/GYN 6 weeks to 3 months in advance. Dentist usually have a waiting list of about 2 months in the US and GP's usually have a waiting list of 2 weeks or so. These are for check ups and routine procedures not emergencies obviously.

It's funny how conservatives and the healthcare industry has used nationalism to convince Americans that they have the best possible healthcare system in the world when 15 minutes on the web could easily demonstrate otherwise.

Laci

Okay so you do a really good job in lazer eye surgery. Any other areas?

But the key here is that if you have an emergency of any sort or are sick at the time, you will get in to see a GP within a few days. Same goes with DDS. If you break a tooth; have an aching cavity. They'll give you an appointment right away.

Our healthcare industry is by far not perfect. And I am one to bitch and moan about doctors these days. However, I still prefer to have my medical needs taken care of right here in the USA.

ex-idaho

Laci I was using this as one example of Ameicans crossing the border for treatment. They aren't going there because the treatement is any different than what they would recieve at home. They are going there becuase it cost half as much. The US government is beholden to the insurance and pharmecutical industries and that has driven up cost accross the board. Thousands of Americans rely on Canadian services for prescriptions not because the treatment is better or worse but becuase its affordable.

Hate to tell you but its the same north of the border. If you have an emergency you get in, just like here.

And I wouldn't try to force you to do otherwise. I would however like to help you understand that with just some minor changes how much better it could be.

Walross

Gee that's funny, everytime I've had a medical problem, emergency or otherwise, it's been looked at right away (as in, the same day I go in - I've never had to wait a few days). The last dental emergency I had (I needed a root canal), was diagnosed the day after I called, and I had the root canal 3 days later. Sounds like someone's been feeding you some BS, Laci.

Walross

Sakpo

Yes, having the United States to the south makes it much easier gor Canadians to gloss over/minimalize the injustices in Canada. It's true, I think America probably is worse overall on most of these scores, but Canadians tend to think they're farther ahead than they really are. It's really easy to notice that the next door neighbor's front yard is filled with wrecked cars and garbage, and to be so busy looking at that and clicking your tongue in disapproval that you don't notice your back yard has a fair amount of trash lying around, maybe a bit obscured by the unmowed lawn.

I think this is all especially easy to not notice Canadian racism. Oddly, that can go for all groups. It's probably easiest for a minority to notice it, since they're most likely to be a victim of it... but a lot of the racism here you might not see unless you're white and paying attention. Since I'm white, white Canadians make racist comments about other groups to me not too infrequently (assuming that I agree with their racism). Minorities may well often be the victims of racism by subtle racists without noticing, or knowing for sure. Canada has a lot of immigrants, I think I read the other day that nearly 18% of Canadians were born abroad. My city (just outside of Vancouver) is comprised mostly of immigrants, well over half the population arrived in Canada in the last 10 years alone! Toronto is the most diverse city in North America, I believe. All that's bound to create tensions and animosity on the part of those who were here before, those who've arrived, etc, and the situation wasn't even close to perfect before the most recent waves of immigration, so I think Canada is doing pretty well considering it all.... but not perfectly. There're problems here.

As for Canada's healthcare system, hmmm. It's complicated. Rich Canadians would be better off with an American style system... the ultra rich already just go to the United States. Average and poorer Canadians in urban areas and rural areas within striking distance of urban Canada are much better off with out system, I think most Canadians agree about that. Really, (I'm including Canadians in the far north) who live with mountains, snow, and many kilometere between them and doctors/hospitals, often don't have access to proper care, then again I don't know if that has much to do with our system as compared to the American one... it'd probably be like that anyway.

People here, even in Vancouver, do die and suffer a lot when, if they were in Seattle and had good coverage, they probably wouldn't. Our healthcare system is under a lot of stress right now, it might even be said to be in crisis, at least in BC. It's often mismanaged by idiot politicians. My mum works as a physiotherapist in my province's major rehabilitation center (people from all over the province who've been seriously injured, ie. brain damage, strokes, broken necks, etc) are sent to it for treatment. My mum works in one of the more important departments, already underfunded and understaffed. She and her coworkers haven't been taking their coffee breaks, paid days off, etc, to keep up proper patient care (tri weekly visits, full visits, home visits, etc) and to help train student physiotherapists (her extra pay for this significant amount of extra work totals over $2!), the physical toil is very demanding (most are working with work injuries, so they're even sacraficing their health)... they're already doing more work for a lot less pay than they'd get doing the exact same job in the United States. They have trouble retaining workers, my mum has been getting good job offers for years, but she has a life here, and for a long time felt that as an immigrant she owed Canada (oh yeah, something non immigrants might not notice, Canada sort of constantly makes immigrants feel that they have to prove, over and over again, forever, that they're not the "Ungrateful Immigrant" who comes to Canada and takes advantage of the system/Canadians).

So, what did I learn the other day? The provincial government (politicians) are cutting her department down by one physiotherapist (not my mum at least), and are relacing them with an assistant. They expect the level of care to stay the same! That's impossible, everyone was already stretched to the limit. It can't be done, visits have to be scaled back now, everyone will still be doing more work, and patient care will suffer... and here's the kicker, they're not saving much money. It's retarded.

My girlfriend's mum is an RN who works at the province's major women's hospital (birth/baby stuff, abortions [one good thing there!], women's health in general, etc). She's paid much less for what she does than what she'd get in the United States, and also recieves job offers quite a bit (she also stays since she has a life here, and is an immigrant who feels she owes Canada somewhat). When my girlfriend said she was considering being a nurse, the mother's first words were "what can I say or do to change your mind?" followed by a long list of why she shouldn't go into the work, unless maybe she was planning on going to the US first.

The provincial government is laying off all sorts of experienced low level health care workers, like those who wash hospital sheets, to replace them with cheaper, inexperiened ex hotel workers. How much you want to bet that'll lead to increased infections and such when the work isn't done right? How well will they retain workers when they pay them only slightly more than they'd get working in a hotel, but to clean urine and feces and blood covered hospital sheets?

My local hospital is scarey as hell. All the health experts I know who I've asked (a couple doctors and some nurses) say to stay the hell away from it if at all possible. Most of the machines are broken down or on the brink of breaking down. It's actually fairly dirty... it sort of feels like how I'd imagine a broken down hospital
in the former USSR would feel... there've been a few scandals at it in the last several years dealing with botched surgeries and the like.

From the point of view of non Dr. health care workers, and I know a lot of them, many of them would be better off in the United States. And that's where a lot of the younger ones are going now. If money/insurance (thus access to all sorts of care) was not an issue, many ill/injured Canadians might be better off in the United States. Still, despite all this naysaying, I do think Canada has a good system, and I prefer it to the American one, though this one needs more money and a lot of work to fix it's problems (sinking money into it wouldn't be enough).

Really poor people get almost all of the cost of their medications covered here (ie. the government got mixed up and put me on their plan when I had a better private plan, but their's was pretty good. They had me down as a fairly poor person, and beyond the first $50, they would have covered all my medication. There is private health coverage in Canada intermingled with public stuff, the private plans are usually much better if you're middle class or better (since the government scales things based on income, family size, etc), but if you're poor you're well covered.

I really do like the Canadian system fromthe viewpoint as a patient (I've been sick and injured enough to have a feel for it from that end). Most of the time, my care has been excellent. But cutbacks and mismanagement are hurting nursing homes, rehabilitation centers, hospitals, clinics, doctors offices, EMERGENCY ROOMS (huge waits now), ambulance service, etc. Health care workers need more respect and better pay/benefits. Things do need fixing, or my opinion might bet considerably worse just a couple years from now.

dpkm

I have to agree with Sakpo. I'm from a different (I think?) city just outside of Vancouver, but I also have close ties to the medical community (my wife is an occupational therapist, my friend's wife is training to be a nurse, there are a couple of doctors on my softball team). What Sakpo says is bang-on.

Also. we lived in the US for a few years, with my wife working in a hospital - so I feel comfortable making some sort of comparison. All in all, I would say if you could afford it, US medical treatment was better - but the key words are if you could afford it. I also had problems with the fact that since some doctors had access to the fancy tools and equipment, they felt obligated to use them, even though in most cases it would be cheaper to pursue more traditional treatments.

They are two different approaches to health care, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. In both cases, though, emergency cases are treated as emergency, with little wait time.

I would like to rationalize to Laci why fewer Americans come to Canada than vice versa - Americans simply aren't allowed to receive the majority of treatments from Canadian medical system because they are not Canadian residents (exceptions duly noted for emergency situations) and hence do not pay taxes for the services. The American medical system welcomes most everyone if you can pay for it.

Given a choice, I'd rather have my medical care done in Canada or the US as compared to Central America.

Also, Laci asked for the statistics regarding US immigration to Canada. In the period from 1991 to 2001, the US ranked tenth as country of origin regarding immigration, with 51 435 of a total of 1 830 680 (~ 2.8% of total immigrants). Total immigration to US from 1991 to 2000 was 9 095 417, with Canadians making up 191 987 (~ 2.1% of total). Considering that the US is roughly ten times the population, Canada had a huge outflow to the US proportionally. Please keep in mind that what constitutes an immigrant according to each country's stat agency may not be equivalent.

Farren

What I find curious reading this debate is that South Africa went through a massive brain drain of nervous white South African professionals in the 90's.

I was watching a doccy on TV the other night about the largest portion of that drain: Doctors - of whom the majority were headhunted by Canada, especially for postings in small towns far from the big cities.

Canada stole our doctors! Down with Canada! Bastards

Well, not really. Actually I've always admired Canada's record. Say what you like but the UN keeps giving them top marks, year after year.

Laci

Firstly, where's the incentive for any of your good doctors to work in Canada under a socialized healthcare system? The good doctors cannot make more $$ under your system. Thus what incentive do any "good" doctors from outside of Canada have to immigrate to Canada to work? None.

Secondly, a Socialized Healthcare System is not free. Everyone pays taxes and it's pooled together and then your government pays for medical treatments. Everyone gets "no choice" healthcare: no choice in choosing better doctors and hence no choice in how they treat you. So it's not "free." It's just the same for everyone!

Thirdly, the US also, using your standards, has healthcare for the entire population. Those not covered by their own insurance, have Medicare and Medicaid. PLUS no hospital here can turn you away So that takes care of everybody too? And our hospitals have some very fine doctors.

Not until you're older and have a more serious medical problem will you really see what your healthcare system will do for you. Long waits to see a specialist "not of your choosing."

:boohoo: