Octavia

I'm not so sure the economy is a good enough excuse, myself. I'm going to give another example from NZ here - sorry to everyone who has heard it all before (I'm not trying to drive this off-topic, but naturally I know my own country best for the sake of examples. If I was Yemeni I'd be rabbitting on about Yemen right now).

In the mid-1980's, when the nuclear issue was brewing in NZ, our economy was down the toilet. Britain had basically cut us loose for the EU, and NZ was for all purposes bankrupt - we were this *tiny amount* close to having to call in the IMF to manage things for us. Then the Rainbow Warrior happened, which pushed us towards the anti-nuclear policy, which screwed our defence ties with the US (basically, it sunk ANZUS) and the UK.

To sum it up, we were dead broke, with pretty much our only ally defense wise being Australia (you gotta love the Aussies - even though they didn't agree with us they stuck by us, and we don't forget it).

Nationally and internationally, this was rock bottom for us - but we found a way out of it. We're not going to get a free trade deal with the US while we're still nuclear free, and the EU is a pretty tight market anyway. So we cut spending and diversified - not because we wanted to, but because we had to. Needs must, and all that. Now our economy's strong (we're the first developed country to negotiate a free trade deal with China), and what's more we've got the international reputation of thinking for ourselves and not being beholden to anyone. That I wouldn't trade for the world - better to be poor and independent than a rich lapdog.

Canada is bigger and richer than we are, with far more resources. If the Canadian people really don't want to be part of this, then they can make it through. It'd be hard, but definitely possible.

Ravon

Right on Octavia, I firmly believe that the yanks would pull out all the stops but we just keep getting fucked over by NAFTA and every other agreement we have with the US. It seems like if they don't come out on top then the other guy cheated and gets a punch in the nose. I have advocated turning off the hydro and gas for a few hours and then see if they want to treat us as a friend instead of a stooge. Unfortunately we haven't been screwed over quite enough yet. Canadians are against the missle defence but our political leaders are spineless twits who haven't the gumption to "stand on guard for thee". Then there are the quislings conservatives who would sell canada out in a heart beat. Harper and the homophobes are right at home with george and the wingnuts but then I think Prime Minister Paul Martin PMPM is quite at home with george as well.
:notworthy

Ravon

This is great growker I almost feel bad about what I have said about your political preferences. However you are right this is about soveriegnty, and specifically over the north west passage. I don't like the american government if I was religious I would say they are evil but since I am not religious I just think of them as amoral imperialists. That siad, I will never accuse them of being stupid - they know that north korea is more likely to ship a nuclear weapon in a container that launch a missle. China is on the way to becoming the next great capitolist success story and will shortly have too much to lose in a retailatory attack. Iran will most likely lose any nuclear capacity it might have in the next 6 months or so when Bush widens the war.

We know the polar ice cap is receding and eventually the north west passage will be navigable at least for part of the year. It is a strategic waterway and america wants it or at least it wants to control it. Those missles won't be defending the usa from a missle attack from a rogue state but asserting its control over the north west passage. Canada as a point of principle needs to say no thanks senior shrub.

Octavia

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Politicians - all of them - need to be kept on a very short leash. You elect 'em, you pay 'em - they are accountable to you.

They serve under sufferance - your sufferance. Always remember that. Because if they forget, it's your duty to remind them - and that reminder doesn't have to wait until election year. There's a reason NZ keeps the nuclear ban - and its not because two decades of sniping and pressure from the US is enjoyable. It's because the government knows which side its bread is buttered on.

Ours. They pull crap, its our responsibility to yank the bloody choke chain until they stop.

Space_Monkey #9

I should of said it better, the point I was trying to make irt terrorism is that Canada becomes noticed a bit more and increases our danger while providing no benefit to us at all. I know the shield won't work, and no one would launch against North America.

Credibilty arises, because it may appear to the rest of the world that when push comes to shove, we'll side with the U.S regardless, even if it's against our own interests. Who's to say our government will have the stones to stand up to Bush the next time he wants something that is utterly useless to us? I realize that I'm falling into a slippery slope, but saying "yes" once usually makes it easier to say a second time.

socratoad

Of course you are right Octavia. I really should have written that more clearly. What I meant by economy was the welfare of the economy of the immoral elite. Its one of the most obnoxious tendencies of uber capitalism. No matter what the circumstance there are some who become billionaires. The most recent ongoing example is Iraq. We all know that its one giant immoral boondoggle, and yet as I type this millions of dollars are being made by some.

Perhaps thats why some, including me call economics the dismal science, at least as it is now both taught and practiced.

Slight derail, but the dibel made me do it.