Automaton

Methinks Kenny is a Bill Craig fanboy. The "Middle Knowledge" position, if I understand it correctly (I can't be bothered reading Craig's paper now, I will do it later), is exactly that which I acknowleged in the "objections" section of my original post. The problem with this is that one can certainly conceive of logically possible, and even plausable (like ours, with minor modifications) worlds in which far more people would have a chance to be saved. Take for example a solipsistic world where each person God creates merely experiences an elaborate hallucination, where they are faced with challenges and such. No person interacts with eachother. If a person will not be saved (and God has foreknowledge of this), then God will simply not bring them into being. Therefore 100% of all people God creates are saved.
It would appear God thought a greater good would come of the slaughter of millions people during the invasions of the Americas, or that the preservation of free will was a "greater value" than all of those lives. Please forgive me if I have an ever so slight moral objection to this.
Which is, "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law." (NIV) Basically, "God is a mystery, but here's a few things to help you on your way".
Bah, too much hurdle jumping for something that probably doesn't even exist.
Hence, from a human perspective, arbitrary.
Well that certainly is a very nice way of putting it.

G B Mayes

Helensl

It does not negate the personal experience of those that seek God without evidence of sucess and I do not believe they are liars. I felt like I was seeking God without success for literally decades. This dry period may have been because I was seeking in the wrong way, though I also asked God to correct any misconceptions I might have and pull me into His kingdom. More likely it was just that God has His own time frame, and that one must wait on Him.

I am not an authority on Christ but let me offer a few ideas on ways to seek God:

1.)One must look to understand the real God, not decide what he/she wants in a God, or will accept in a God.God is the Creator and absolute soverign of everything. Many people seem to want to judge God and consider Him an equal. God created us, He does not need to look to us for advice or correction. We have nothing to offer Him. He loses nothing if we reject Him.

2.)One must begin with faith, and understanding will follow. This seems contrary to our natural inclinations, but it is an immutable rule. If one seeks first to prove up God and Christ he will fail. If one starts with faith he will succeed. Might I add that this is not as bizarre as it seems. The entire creation screams of the reality of God. God has put the knowledge of Himself in all our hearts. Where do atheist posters think their sense of morality and righteous came from? Did it crawl out of the sea with us? Is it evolutionary to protect the species one from another? If so, it has not been very effective. Only with great contortions can anyone deny the reality of God. Picking around the edges, decrying an evil God, finding supposed inconsistencies in the Bible, describing a Big Bang and the theory of evolution as evidence against God, questioning the authorship of the Bible, suggesting believers are weak-minded and countless other diatribes are sideshows with no validity. Each of us knows in his heart that God is real. The question is, what are we going to do about it?
Ps 53:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

3.)Pray for faith, guidance and understanding.

4.)Read the Bible. Start with the New Testament, one of the gospels. The key to salvation is Christ. Later you may tackle the Old Testament and appreciate it as revealing a loving just God. No, he is not a cuddly fellow, and yes he killed untold thousands, but He is just and long-suffering.

5.)Seek true, mature Christians for fellowship. This is not so easy as many "Christians" are in name only. You will know them by their fruits.

6.)Try to find a church to attend that preaches the Bible. When you leave the service you should be thinking about what was presented, not the presenter. Avoid a church where the pastor is the center of attention rather than the Word.

7.)Have patience. God works in His own good time, not ours. Rest in the promise that those who seek will find and you will not die before the promise is fulfilled.

8.)Base your faith on the promises of God, not on emotion. That is, do not wake up happy one morning and say, "Oh what a beautiful day, I know Jesus loves me." and then when something "bad" or painful comes your way say, "Oh what pain, how could this happen to me? Jesus must not love me or maybe He is not real." (May I add that this is one of my many failings.) Rather hold your faith regardless of the circumstances and emotion. True faith is not fickle. Hold the faith regardless of emotion and you will not be disappointed.

Kenny

Actually, I disagree with Craig’s version of the middle knowledge position, though I think the idea has merit. You asked if there were any other possibilities. I presented you with one.

Yes, but Craig’s position holds that everyone born into our world who would respond favorably to the Gospel is given the chance to do so, and those who are not given the chance, wouldn’t have anyway.

How do you know that’s not the way things are now?

Actually, I’m not sure that’s possible in the context of the Christian redemption scheme, since ideas like the atonement presuppose a certain level of human solidarity. In any event, such worlds may be possible, but that doesn’t necessarily make them the most valuable. There is value in human interaction, the ability to influence others, and even in the possibility of our actions having significant moral consequences in both our own lives and the lives of others. At any rate, I think that problem with arguments of the nature, “If God was really good and all powerful and all knowing, he would have created the world like x,” is that, quite frankly, we’re not God, and we’re not all knowing or all powerful, and we’re definitely not very good. We don’t know all the factors that make for a better world and which don’t, and it is foolish to argue that an omniscient being was wrong in His assessments. Since such arguments only work as internal critiques of Christian theism, they must grant Christian premises to begin with for the sake of argument, but once they do, it follows that whatever choice God made, it must have been the right one, and so the argument never gets off the ground.

God Bless,
Kenny

Automaton

Here's the tricky part. There is no "real god". Never was, never will be. Unless, of course, you can provide evidence. We won't exactly be holding our breaths though.
Unsupported assertion. Besides, this notion is self-refuting; if God created everything, he must have some point created himself, which means he did not exist at that point but nonexistence somehow conjured up itself.
It's so very easy not to question your beliefs, isn't it?
Yes he does, God is a work-in-progress (explains why he's changes so much over the years), a fictional creation in the minds of his inventors.
If humans, as a whole, have nothing to offer God, then why did God create us? Does God behave in a totally random fashion, creating unnecessary whatsits left, right and centre?
This is so obviously self-delusion that I won't even bother to comment on it.
There is no "creation", and if there is, it never screamed anything about God to me.
How come heart surgeons don't notice it when operating then?
Certainly not from something you just imagined. Belief in invisible, unknowable things only detracts from finding the true source of morality.
Please voice your scientific objections to the entire body of peer-reviewed literature on sociobiology.
What about "the reality of elves and fairies"? Faith must come first, my ignorant little friend, then you will see the Light! Elves and fairies are the one true path to Salvation! Hallelujah!
What is your problem with elves and fairies my son? All you can do to the concept of them is pick around the edges, you have not totally 100% disproved them, thus they are the One True Reality! Can't argue with THAT logic.
So you wouldn't be at all upset by an evil God existing in reality? Are you a masochist or something?
Can you tell me sir, what exactly is wrong with the Holy Koran? Don't worry, there's no quote that I can't reinterpret my way out of!
*gasping for air between bursts of uncontrollable laughter*
Oh, by all means, feel free to give us all of the original manuscripts of the Bible.
And what do you consider your little rantings about the joys of willful ignorance and the stupidity of atheism? Constructive criticism? Comedy?
Will heart medication fix it? I think people should talk to their doctors about this.
Expose it for the bunch of lies and fairy tales that it is?
And I say, "You're a jackass." Hey, at least this time, you have a pretty good idea of who really authored it. Don't forget Matthew 5:22 "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell" (NIV) You're going to hell, buddy.
After all, nothing fails like prayer!
Atheists are generally more familiar with it than Christians. Now why is that?
What if their fruits are apples? And they look kinda like snakes?
Yes, it is much easier to be brainwashed when you are in the company of others who feel the same way.
Yeah, God's too busy killing children in Africa to worry about our petty problems.
This suddenly struck me as a very funny statement.
While it's still true nothing fails like prayer, faith must seriously come in at a tight second.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: Automaton ]</p>

Automaton

Well, in that case, thank you.
Well this is a solution to the Lucy dilemma, but any form of predestination has its problems. Are we not all born equal, deserving of the same treatment? Just because we won't, does that mean we were never entitled to? Then why did God allow us to be brought into being in the first place, since we'd only be destined for nonexistence (or worse, hell) alway?
Hehe, easy. I'm an atheist, aren't I? Or do I even exist, other than as another factor to test you in some way Kenny? I'd certainly not like to think I'm just a sock puppet for Kenny's purposes alone!
I should think that the possible world that allowed the perfect salvation, or the closest thing thereof, without violating on the things considered theologically valuable about this world (unique landscape for testing and spiritual growth) would be the most valuable.
How is this inconsistent with my solipsistic model. If the person thinks they are interacting with other people, but aren't really, why does this not offer the same potential for spiritual growth?
I don't think one has to be God, nor even possess any "omni-" characteristics, to make judgements of this nature. But it would be foolish to claim an omniscient being wrong in these matters, if such an omniscient being existed, and that's what all this arguing is about!
That's the beauty of the atheist position Kenny, the ability for external critique of deity concepts.

HelenM

It's about reasoning ability, eowynn. The thought among many Christians is that if you don't have the intellectual capability to reject God, then you're covered by God's grace and Jesus death on the cross. Babies do need Jesus to have died for them because of 'original sin' but because they can't reject Him they are saved by grace.

There are a couple of Bible verses alluding to children being especially loved by God, also. So that implies His grace and favor towards them, too.

love
Helen

free12thinker

Do you have any proof that God brought my daughter into the world? Do you have any proof he exists? Do you have any proof beyond faith, which is nothing but blind trust. My wife and I brought my daughter into this world, not a deity. Not a god. Not someone(thing)(it) with no logical reasoning or proof regarding its existence. God's a pipe dream for people to believe in when their mental strength is limited. It's an easy way out of the difficult times in life. It's an easy explanation for the wonders of science. SOrry to rain on your parade, but I'll have to play jury here and require that little thing called evidence.

Don't worry though. You can always tell yourself that god owns you and your family if it makes you feel better. Maybe that'll help you when things aren't always peachy. It won't be your fault. You don't have control and you never did anyway. Right?

free12thinker

I really do feel bad for you though. And your family (or forthcoming family). You know Andrea Yates thought God had complete control too.

I do have a question about the acknowldgement and acceptance you talk about. How do you suppose we acknowledge him anyway? Do you think we are purposefully avoiding the obvious? Or do you think we are just being rebellious. Cause I'll tell you now, Atheists fit neither of the above. They simply don't have blind faith in things that defy logic. Ghosts. Goblins. Elves. God. They're all the same.

luvluv

I only read the first page (no time right now to read the rest) but I think we are mistakenly assuming that all possibility of salvation occurs on this earth.

I think preachers have used this line in the past because it has implies an obvious incentive to respond to their pitch now, as opposed to later.

I don't think there is any Biblical reason to believe that people cannot be saved after death.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

MadMordigan

I note that all responses to the original post so far seem to have shared the basis assumption that repentence after death is impossible.
If that assumption was to be challenged it would seem to me that the original question along with most of the subsequent bickering is pointless.

I agree Tercel. But if this assumption is successfully challenged, then the entire 'great commission' of xians is rendered irrelevant.