brighid

Agapeo,

I read your last post and I didn't find anything offensive or unsupportive about it. It is hardly different then what I have said, just a bit more succinct. I also do not think advice in the negative is being "unsupportive." Frankly, if Vicar has not complained about your posts (and I don't know, nor am I asking who PM'd you) I can't see why this would be a problem.

I also so no "theist" advice within your comments, and a person may consider or throw out any advice give - ones provided with a positive spin, or even those with a cautious spin. I don't know anything in the rules that states support must always be positive.

If a member, and not a moderate of this forum (or administrator of the board) contacted you this would not be any formal II policy, but rather a personal opinion and I hope you would not go away because of that particular exchange.

Please reconsider participation on this board. I have enjoyed your participation on this thread.


Brighid

Vicar Philip

I spoke to our former pastor last night for three hours.

To cut to the chase, believe it or not, he is a non-theist. When I say non-theist, I refer to no belief in god as a being. What he calls god, I call life, or the universe, or everything around us.

He views the bible as poetry, a collection of stories written by men. He doesn't believe in Creation, but rather embraces science. I think part of me somehow knew this was the type of person he was. I'd just never had the opportunity to discuss it with him.

When you define god as the typical fundamentalist Christian god, all the questions I had are valid. However, if you redefine god as simply life, as I said above, the questions I raised are moot. Is god simply nature?

He even told me that prayer is nothing more than a method to make one feel better. "God" doesn't intervene, prayer is simply a way to come to grips with whatever troubles you. I still don't feel a need to pray. I can hope, or sympathize, but I really have no need to pray.

So now I'm a little puzzled. This man, a Methodist pastor, does not believe in the standard version of Christianity. Nor do I. Does this make me something besides an atheist? Is it "pantheists" who believe in the universe as god? I just don't know. Of course I believe in the universe and life, we're all submerged in it every day. I just don't know if I would call it god. I can't seem to shake the image of a big white robed man in a large throne sporting a long white beard. To me, that is god. When I hear someone talk about god, this is the image my mind conjures up. I reject that.

He told me that he couldn't tell my wife all the things he told me. She's not ready, and may never be ready to change the way she thinks about religion. We are still going to meet him on the 28th.

I don't know how I think now. As I said above, I don't believe in the usual god, and never will. I can see how someone could define the universe as god, but what does that mean to my beliefs?

Janaya

Hey Vicar,

I was really surprised when you said the minister was a non-theist!! Wow.

If I were you I would investigate pantheism a bit. I am sure there are websites around, and there may even be some articles about it here on the SecWeb. I don't know too much about it but I have a feeling that you probably don't believe in it. You are still an atheist concerning the Christian god and probably all the other gods of religion as well. If it turns out that you are a pantheist then I'm sure that will be a bit more palatable to your wife. In any case I wouldn't worry too much about it. It is always good to double check your reasons for your beliefs.

Did the minister say anything specific regarding your marriage? Or your wife's behavior?

brighid

Vicar Phillip,

WOW - I bet getting that meeting over and finding out his pastor is a non-theist was a HUGE relief!

Well ... keep investigating, reading, asking questions, refining your beliefs, etc. They will evolve. I do believe we have a few Scientific Pantheists here, but for the life of me I can't remember who they are. It would be worth investigating the ideas of Scientific Pantheism, for nothing less then expanding your knowledge base. I found it to be pretty agreeable.

I don't know if Nature can be defined a God, at least not in the traditional sense we are use to. What is God if it's not the myriad theistic versions of IT? I personally do not know, and this is why I interpret my beliefs as being atheistic in regard to Gods designed by men and agnostic with regard to something that can be defined as "God."

Happy Hunting and do keep us posted about the next meeting and how everything is going. I am really glad things have calmed down and that they appear to be on the upswing.

Brighid

HelenM

Hi Darren - wow, you didn't expect that, did you? In hindsight it seems rather ironic that your wife expected this minister to reconvert you.

I'd say his views are very compatible with UU and probably his reasons for moving from a theistic to a nontheistic form of Christianity are very similar to your reasons for moving from Christianity to atheism. So I expect you have a lot in common in your objections to conservative Christianity. But you probably know that already, having talked to him for three hours! It was kind of him to give you that much time.

If you want to know more about into nontheistic Christianity I recommend A New Christianity for a New Millenium by John Shelby Spong. Also, a History of God by Karen Armstrong talks about the history of theism and includes the emergence of nontheistic forms of it. Karen Armstrong was very happy to find there was a form of Christianity that fitted her, as I recall. Like you she was unaware of nontheistic Christianity for much of her life. She was a nun for a while (!) but it didn't work out.

Anyway, nontheistic forms of Christianity seem to have much in common with UU and atheism, to me.

And btw, congratulations on your moderatorship! I just noticed that

take care
Helen

stryder2112

To tell you the truth, I rather believe it. Outside of fundy-dom, this isn't terribly uncommon. I can't recall who first told me this, but I 've seen it repeated numerous times -

"Going through a good seminary will either turn you into an 'atheist' or you will run back and burry your head in the sand to cling to your theism."

After learning about Bible, it's formation, Christian history, theology, etc., taught at a good seminary it's nigh impossible for a thinking person to cling to "childish" notions of a personal god, Bible inerrancy, etc.

I believe that Rev. Joshua, who posts at II, wrote something similar. Actually, there's a third option, one that I've found quite a number of ministers in Methodist, ELCA Lutheran, and Episcopalian churches hold. This is very similar to the views expressed by your Methodist pastor. They personally have some sort of quasi-pantheist view of god but also understand that most of their parishners cannot accept on an emotional level that the concept of a personal god (e.g. "theism") is dead. So they muddle on in the double-speak of theism while translating it in their own minds into a sort of agnostic pantheism.

Ask any of them in the sort of friendly conversation Vicar Philip had about religion and they mostly talk about the emotionalism of clinging to theistic notions and the role the church plays in emotional and social support. And thus, that's what most non-fundy churches are: glorified support groups. That's also why they're not big on evangelism and recruitment.

Vicar Philip, I know I haven't written to this thread before, but I've followed it closely. I think your meeting with the pastor went as well or better than I had privately hoped. I'm rather encouraged that he will be able to help set your wife on the right path to accepting your change in your understanding Christianity, god, etc. and pointing her (and you both) to more help than he can offer for getting through your problems. Your wife's respect for this man will greatly help her over this hurdle of "all-or-nothing" regarding the status of your belief.

Stryder

brighid

Oh my gosh - how did I miss your moderatorship .... CONGRATULATIONS

Brighid

Proxima Centauri

Whether of not you are considered a theist can depend on how the wortd, 'God'
is defined.
Theodore M. Drange's paper, 'Atheism, Agnosticism, Noncognitivism
' discusses the topic.

Bumble Bee Tuna

well, he did say former pastor, people. I don't think this is the fundyland pastor of their new church. I forget the story, but didn't Darren used to go to a decent church and then they moved and started going to a new more fundy church? Was that brettc? Ooh! I just had a thought that negates what I said though. Dag. Former as in "when I went to church, he was my pastor, and if I still went to church, he would still be my pastor". Shizzle.
So forget that.
Um if that's the case that's great news. I don't know why you feel the need to check out pantheism because of it, though. Why call the universe "god" when it changes absolutely nothing? I just don't understand. You thought, because he has the same beliefs as you, why aren't you a pantheist? Because he's clinging to his theism, and you're not. That's all I can see. There's no reason for you to become pantheist unless you're clinging to theism, which it sounded like you aren't.

Is the wife going to find out about this? That would really throw her for a loop. Not only her husband but also her minister is an atheist? Maybe it would help her realize atheists aren't so bad. Maybe you're not allowed to tell her though. I suppose we all just need to hear more before I could try to give more advice.

Congrats on your modship! Tough job, being a moderator. And I only mod a little piddly board compared to the rules mods follow and enforce here. Good luck.

-B

wildernesse

haha! Vicar Phillip! Your meeting with the minister makes me laugh so much. Sorry, it's too hard to explain.

I'm glad that it turned out well, and that you have met someone who sounds very interesting to talk to. I hope that he will be able to talk to your wife about marriage issues and work well in that area as well.

--tibac