Freethought & Rationalism Archive

phaedrus · 02-28-2002, 10:26 PM

Ahh well suicide, the all important notion when one is faced with existential angst. While i could give my two cents on the issue, its better to repeat the words of albert camus who dealt with the issue much more in detail and eloquently in The Myth of Sisyphus...

Quote:

Camus spent at least five years writing and editing the work. The polish is clear with the first sentence:
""There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. Deciding whether or not life is worth living is to answer the fundamental question in philosophy. All other questions follow from that."

According to Camus, suicide was a sign that one lacked the strength to face "nothing." Life is an adventure without final meaning, but still worth experiencing. Since there is nothing else, life should be lived to its fullest and derive meaning from human existence. For Camus, people were what gave life meaning. However, in the moments following the realization that one will, one's descendants will die... in fact, earth will die, one senses a deep anxiety. And, as an atheist, Camus doubted meaning beyond this life.

"A world which can be explained, even through bad reasoning, is a familiar one. On the other hand, in a world suddenly devoid of illusion and light, man feels like a stranger."

Isolated from any logic, without an easy explanation for why one exists, there is what some call "existential angst." While Camus did not use the phrase, it adequately describes the sensation. Even existentialists of faith struggle with creation, wondering why humanity exists when a Creator would not need mankind. Merely wanting to create something seems like a curious reason to create life. So, even for those of faith, the initial creation is puzzling.

How does one exist without any given purpose or meaning? How does one develop meaning? The Myth of Sisyphus addresses this directly in the retelling of the famous tale. Considering the plight of Sisyphus, condemned to roll a stone up a mountain knowing the stone will roll down yet again, it is easy to declare his existence absurd and without hope. It would be easy to believe Sisyphus might prefer death... but in Camus' myth, he does not.

"Living the absurd� means a total lack of hope (which is not the same as despair), a permanent reflection (which is not the same as renunciation), and a conscious dissatisfaction (which is not the same as juvenile anxiety)."

For Camus, Sisyphus is the ultimate absurd hero. He was sentenced for the crime of loving life too much; he defied the gods and fought death. The gods thought they found a perfect form of torture for Sisyphus. He would constantly hope for success, that the stone would remain at the top of the mountain. This, the gods thought, would forever frustrate him.

Yet, defying the gods yet again, Sisyphus is without hope. He abandons any illusion that he might succeed at the assigned task. Once he does this, Camus considers him a hero. Sisyphus begins to view his ability to do the task again and again -- to endure the punishment -- a form of victory.

"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."

excreationist · 03-01-2002, 12:01 AM

I think suicide comes from an intense belief that your life *must* be different in order for you to feel good about yourself. And the belief that this change is unachievable. This negative belief system would outweigh the guilt or fear associated with suicide (depending on how serious their thoughts are).
Usually people are more easy-going and just *prefer* things to be a certain way and accept that they will be disappointed sometimes - even a lot of the time. And they believe that the future is probably filled with many possibilities.

Euromutt · 03-02-2002, 02:10 PM

Svensky wrote:

Quote:

Because most people realise that suicde is the choice of the coward and the completely selfish.

That would, I assume, include my friend who accepted euthanasia last June after the bowel cancer he was suffering had spread to his lungs and his breathing was getting impaired?

uhcord · 03-02-2002, 02:52 PM

Recently I had became extremly depressed and was seriously thinking of commiting suicide.

It was not one centeral problem, it was basically the build up of everything that had happen in my life thus far. But to shorten it down, my basic thoughts where:

The world is more evil than good

The pleasures in life do not outweigh or even out the pains.

Knowing that I would contribute to this hate, evil and pain, no matter how hard I tried not to.

Knowing that I would piss off, and cause pain to other people no matter how hard I tried not to.

Extreme distress over trying to decide wiether there was a god or not. (I actually thought that if I killed myself, I would solve this stupid and impossible question <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> )

Having very low self-esteem

Believed the world would be better without me, that no one would care if I was gone.

Anyways, I worked out alot of my problems (including the god thing, became an atheist) and happy as heck to be alive and well!

Hope that helps you out in some way or another.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ]

Edit: Grrrr, my spelling and grammar is not at its best right now.... need some sleep ... zzzzZZzz

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ]</p>

christ-on-a-stick · 03-02-2002, 03:26 PM

I must disagree with the common blanket characterization of suicide as "cowardly and selfish", with a negative connotation to the "selfish part".

Of course it's selfish - but why is that necessarily bad? You're the one who has to live with your "self" - if you are in great pain, whether physical or psychological, and have decided after much deliberation (not just a rash act) that you do not wish to continue living, wouldn't you say it's "selfish" of anyone else to insist that no, you must go on living? They can't live your life for you, why should someone feel obligated to live for someone else?

This is not to say that suicide CANNOT be selfish in a negative way, just that it is not always inherently negative to think of yourself first - be selfish, essentially - since you're the one who has to get up and face every day.

Coragyps · 03-02-2002, 03:56 PM

vonmeth: I've been near suicide in the past, too, and I would call low self-esteem the biggest factor. Prozac and a job outside Big Corporate America (TM) got me over all that.
svensky and c-o-a-s: "selfish," yes, but as c-o-a-s defines it, and not "cowardly" at all. My best friend blew his brains all over the local airport about ten years ago. He had shattered an ankle in an ultralight plane crash a year before, had to have the foot amputated after a year in and out of the hospital, went back to his old alcoholic ways (he'd been dry for a year or two before the crash.... and he just plain couldn't fucking take any more!
I was really pissed off at his "selfishness" at depriving me of his friendship at first - but that really wasn't it. In fact, he waited on me to commit to getting some medical help for my depression before he killed himself. I think that we each have our own "threshold of pain," and that for some of us, like Euromutt's friend and mine, suicide is the logical way out. Whether logical to those left to mourn is harder to say.
A 16-year-old kid here in town killed himself yesterday. I know his family somewhat - I didn't know him - but suicide does, indeed, suck bigtime for all the people who beat themselves up for years after with "If only I hadn't said..." or "If only I had known ..." None of it valid, or true, of course, but it's sure hard to keep from "blaming" yourself.
Does this qualify as a rant yet???
Coragyps

ps: are there any stats to show which of the East or the West really has the higher suicide rate? I know dentists used to be way up there....

Francois Tremblay · 03-02-2002, 11:15 PM

I'm not sure how suicide is supposed to be selfish anyway. Someone in extreme pain who is going to die I can see, but in an average situation ? A healthy person with temporary problems ? You know what they say.. suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Vorkosigan · 03-03-2002, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keenanvin:
<strong>I beleive suicide is more prevalent in Western Cultures is partly becuase of the individualistic views of society. Ine astern and Asian cultures the focus is based on avoiding confrontation and keeping family values and image in society. Western cultures seem to stress 'being on your own' and so people seem less reliant on others and are less willing to go seek help becuase it 'is their own fault'. But is suicide really a problem? Of course people die, but they will anyways. I geuss it all depends on your perspective.</strong>

Actually, the cultural construction you've set up here is almost completely false. See

<a href="http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/IASR/suicide-figure1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/IASR/suicide-figure1.htm</a>

for international suicide rankings.

The leading suicide nations are almost all former Soviet Republics. But then there is Georgia in the bottom fifth.

Look how many Islamic countries are on the bottom.

Now try and factor in the relative acceptance of suicide in each culture. Would (a) someone kill themselves and (b) would the government fairly report it as a suicide? That's a tricky question. From several years of working with stats overseas, I have a healthy suspicion about social science data from non-western countries.

The "individualistic westerners" vs "familial asians" is a horseshit construction of authoritarian Asian elites. Western families are strong in their way, Asian families are strong in their own way.

Michael

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03-01-2002, 12:01 AM	#12
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	I think suicide comes from an intense belief that your life must be different in order for you to feel good about yourself. And the belief that this change is unachievable. This negative belief system would outweigh the guilt or fear associated with suicide (depending on how serious their thoughts are). Usually people are more easy-going and just prefer things to be a certain way and accept that they will be disappointed sometimes - even a lot of the time. And they believe that the future is probably filled with many possibilities.

03-02-2002, 02:52 PM	#14
uhcord Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,158	Recently I had became extremly depressed and was seriously thinking of commiting suicide. It was not one centeral problem, it was basically the build up of everything that had happen in my life thus far. But to shorten it down, my basic thoughts where: The world is more evil than good The pleasures in life do not outweigh or even out the pains. Knowing that I would contribute to this hate, evil and pain, no matter how hard I tried not to. Knowing that I would piss off, and cause pain to other people no matter how hard I tried not to. Extreme distress over trying to decide wiether there was a god or not. (I actually thought that if I killed myself, I would solve this stupid and impossible question <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> ) Having very low self-esteem Believed the world would be better without me, that no one would care if I was gone. Anyways, I worked out alot of my problems (including the god thing, became an atheist) and happy as heck to be alive and well! Hope that helps you out in some way or another. [ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ] Edit: Grrrr, my spelling and grammar is not at its best right now.... need some sleep ... zzzzZZzz [ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ]</p>

03-02-2002, 03:26 PM	#15
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	I must disagree with the common blanket characterization of suicide as "cowardly and selfish", with a negative connotation to the "selfish part". Of course it's selfish - but why is that necessarily bad? You're the one who has to live with your "self" - if you are in great pain, whether physical or psychological, and have decided after much deliberation (not just a rash act) that you do not wish to continue living, wouldn't you say it's "selfish" of anyone else to insist that no, you must go on living? They can't live your life for you, why should someone feel obligated to live for someone else? This is not to say that suicide CANNOT be selfish in a negative way, just that it is not always inherently negative to think of yourself first - be selfish, essentially - since you're the one who has to get up and face every day.

03-02-2002, 03:56 PM	#16
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	vonmeth: I've been near suicide in the past, too, and I would call low self-esteem the biggest factor. Prozac and a job outside Big Corporate America (TM) got me over all that. svensky and c-o-a-s: "selfish," yes, but as c-o-a-s defines it, and not "cowardly" at all. My best friend blew his brains all over the local airport about ten years ago. He had shattered an ankle in an ultralight plane crash a year before, had to have the foot amputated after a year in and out of the hospital, went back to his old alcoholic ways (he'd been dry for a year or two before the crash.... and he just plain couldn't fucking take any more! I was really pissed off at his "selfishness" at depriving me of his friendship at first - but that really wasn't it. In fact, he waited on me to commit to getting some medical help for my depression before he killed himself. I think that we each have our own "threshold of pain," and that for some of us, like Euromutt's friend and mine, suicide is the logical way out. Whether logical to those left to mourn is harder to say. A 16-year-old kid here in town killed himself yesterday. I know his family somewhat - I didn't know him - but suicide does, indeed, suck bigtime for all the people who beat themselves up for years after with "If only I hadn't said..." or "If only I had known ..." None of it valid, or true, of course, but it's sure hard to keep from "blaming" yourself. Does this qualify as a rant yet??? Coragyps ps: are there any stats to show which of the East or the West really has the higher suicide rate? I know dentists used to be way up there....

03-02-2002, 11:15 PM	#17
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	I'm not sure how suicide is supposed to be selfish anyway. Someone in extreme pain who is going to die I can see, but in an average situation ? A healthy person with temporary problems ? You know what they say.. suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

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