Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Aethernaut · 03-13-2002, 05:37 PM

spin & punkersluta,

Meant to get this in the original question, then got sidetracked.

Are you ovo-lacto vegetarians (or perhaps ovo or lacto) or vegans? Or even pescetarian for that matter?

-SK

x-member · 03-13-2002, 05:40 PM

Bonduca:

I guess one of the following:

1) Actual conversion to veganism.

2) Introduce us to the basic beliefs of veganism.

3) Berate meat eaters and show them their immorality.

4) Use debate with nonbelievers to firm their resolve towards veganism.

or

5) Convince themselves of their own moral superiority.

Jon

Aethernaut · 03-13-2002, 05:41 PM

As scary as it is, yes, they do make leather shirts.

You see all kinds of fun things in N'awlins.

-SK

bonduca · 03-13-2002, 05:42 PM

Punkerslut, are you more interested in results, or in feeding a sense of misunderstood self-importance?

Detached9 · 03-13-2002, 05:42 PM

I'm not sure the exact wording, but Mad Kally said something similar to "Why do all the vegans go crazy when a vegetarianism thread is brought up?"

I've seen some bitter responses to this thread from both sides, I wouldn't single out one or the other. Although I agree with most of Punker's arguments, I don't agree with his somewhat frequent attacks at peoples' character. I don't think most of the non-vegetarians here are being horribly respectful either.

I'm vegetarian, but don't expect everyone else to be one. I don't consider it a choice though; I don't consider anything a choice. I simply value animals in a different way than some other people do for a few reasons.

I don't really want to be too involved in this debate, but I also didn't think it would be fair to not comment on the level of hostility from both sides.

spin · 03-13-2002, 05:44 PM

SK,

My main diet is pizza and pasta.
I eat lots of vegemite.
I drink lots and lots of fruit juice.
I'm not a great veggie consumer.
I don't usually eat eggs (I never buy them).
I do drink milk.

punkersluta · 03-13-2002, 05:45 PM

Spin...

Quote:

shoes ----- it is difficult, to get
serious non-leather shoes,
but you'll find runners
that have no leather

I had difficulty getting new non-leather boots, too. Those are TOUGH to find: boots where you can look sharp and the business knows that you refuse to buy leather. I went to maybe three or four stores and found nothing. Payless ShoeSource was perfect: almost everything non-leather and cheap. (Hey, you can fulfill two causes! Veganism and Socialism! Whoopee!)

Quote:

wallets --- who needs a wallet?

With a little ingeniosity and creativity, one can transform a roll of duct tape into the perfect wallet! You probably won't even use the whole roll!

"A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral." - Lev Nik Tolstoi [On Civil Disobedience.]

Ack.... out of fresh quotes. (Yeah, I keep a list.)

<a href="http://www.punkerslut.com" target="_blank">www.punkerslut.com</a>

For 108,
Punkerslut

Viti · 03-13-2002, 05:46 PM

Wool is an animal product...and certainly used to make shirts, gloves, pants, etc. The sheep are not killed, but are raised in similar conditions as other animals...do you wear wool?

Bill Snedden · 03-13-2002, 05:46 PM

Wow, I actually get to contribute to the meat (no pun intended) of this debate!

Quote:

Originally posted by punkersluta:
1. It does not matter that animals eat each other. This holds no reflection on morality. Primates are known to steal from each other, salamanders are known to cannibalize each other, and some Galapagos lizards are known to rape each other. However, it does not give us any right to steal, to cannibalize, or to rape other humans. Then, certainly, if animals consume each other, it does not give humans any right to consume animals.

This seems to me to be unwarranted anthropormorphism.

In order to "steal", one must first possess the concept of the right to property. I see no reason to believe that non-human animals possess this concept.

In order to "rape", one must first possess the concept of necessary consent to intercourse. Again, I see no reason to believe that non-human animals possess this concept.

If you are going to use arguments that depend upon the possession by non-human animals of moral and ethical systems equivalent to human ones, you will need to provide some evidence to demonstrate their existence. Otherwise, your argument will fail.

Quote:

Originally posted by punkersluta:
2. It is true that lions and other predators must hunt to kill. However, humans are certainly not in that situation. We do not need to kill other conscious animals to keep ourselves alive. In fact, humans will live longer and survive longer if we STOP eating meat, as proven by numerous studies in science and nutrition. However, lions do not have an option to stop eating meat. If the same situation were for humans, then eating animals would be justified. If a human was trapped on an island with no consumable vegetation, then hunting and killing an animal to consume would be justifiable, as no other option would be present. However, in today's world, we do not need to kill any animals to survive.

This would seem to me to be inconsistent. Given the same "trapped on an island" scenario, would you argue that it was acceptable to kill and eat a human child if no other option were present? If not, then why would it be (assuming your stance) acceptable to eat other animals?

Quote:

Originally posted by punkersluta:
A gun is made to kill. Does that mean it is morally acceptable to use it in that way?

A knife is made to stab. Does that mean it is morally acceptable to use it in that way?

Similiarly.... A human body is (or may be) made to consume flesh. Does that mean it is morally acceptable to use it in that way? Furthermore, ***EVEN*** if it is, does that mean that humans can eat each other, because we are all made of flesh?

This is a poor set of analogies. Guns and knives are not moral agents. If they were, it is quite likely that they would indeed regard killing & stabbing as morally acceptable.

IMO, it is true that function alone is not sufficient to determine ethical questions, however it does provide rational basis for argument. The fact that the predator-prey relationship exists in nature and is part of evolutionary development does not render it moral, however it does provide the basis for a strong argument against its immorality.

Finally, much has been said about the "suffering" of non-human animals, but no one has provided any evidence that they do, in fact, "suffer". Certainly non-human animals experience pain, but is that really the same as "suffering"?

"Suffering" carries with it the connotation of "experience"; the idea that pain or misery is not simply felt, but comprehended and understood. I'm certainly no expert in animal biology or neurology, but I'm not sure that its correct to equate non-human animal's experience of pain with "suffering". Isn't this just more anthropomorphising?

Before the "anti-meat" group pulverizes me, I'm not suggesting it's okay to subject non-human animals to painful experiences. However, much of the argument has centered around alleged equivalency between human and non-human animals. If such equivalency doesn't really exist, then the points would seem to be largely moot.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Snedden ]

alek0 · 03-13-2002, 05:47 PM

Punkersluta:

I don't understand what you're saying here. First, you say that experts say that know a lot about nutrition and then say that alfalfa is poisonous to cats, which is also brought up by experts. Seems like a dichotomy, "We recommend alfalfa for cats which is poisonous," -- or a highly unethical medical standard. Of course, if

What I am saying is that animal nutrition is not a topic studied enough to be able to recommend "complete and balanced" diet. Alfalfa is recommended supplement according to several books on natural cat care, and it is present in commercially available foods such as Innova. And yet alfalfa is poisonous for cats. So I am asking you to explain on what basis do you claim that cats can thrive on vegeterian diet? Another question is can you explain what is the source of taurine in those foods? What is the advantage of obtaining taurine from supplement instead of natural source (other than satisfying YOUR moral requirements which would be unjustly imposed on another sentient being, i.e. cat)?

Also, please address why such nice health vegan cat dry food contains garlic? Garlic, onions etc. are not recommended for cats.

""An alkaloid, N-propyl disulphide, present in both cultivated and wild onions, chives, and garlic, affects the enzyme, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase, in red blood cells that interferes with the hexose monophosphate pathway. Oxidation of hemoglobin results because there is either insufficient phosphate dehydrogenase or glutathione to protect the red blood cells from oxidative injury. The resulting formation of Heinz bodies within erythrocytes is characteristic of onion poisoning. (...)"
Marielle Gomez-Kaifer, PhD, Department of Chemistry, University of Miami

"Onion poisoning has been described in the cat by Kobayaschi (1981) who reported a hemolytic anemia and increase in Heinz bodies in cats that had consumed onion soup. (...)"
Excerpt from Nutrient Requirements of Cats, Revised edition by the National Research Council.
Ref.: Kobayaschi, K. 1981. Onion poisoning in the cat. Feline Pract. 11:22. "

Please address the addition of brewer's yeast to vegan cat food. Yeast is a known to cause severe allergic reactions in some cats. All the nutrients in yeast are available in meat and eggs which are normal feline diet.

Please address addition of vit. C in those foods.
<a href="http://www.pangeaveg.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Pangea&Product_ Code=570&Category_Code=14-dog-cat" target="_blank">http://www.pangeaveg.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Pangea&Product_ Code=570&Category_Code=14-dog-cat</a>

""Cats normally synthesize vitamin C (ascorbic acid) from glucose, so there is no need to supplement the diet unless there is a high metabolic need or inadequate synthesis. Excessive supplementation may actually be harmful, because excessive ascorbic acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate. A high concentration of oxalate in the urine has the potential to contribute to the formation of calcium oxalate stones in the urinary tract."
The Cornell Book of Cats, 2nd. edition, page 82 "

--------------------------------------------------
As for medical articles on human health, I was just demonstrating that there are medical papers which support both points of view. You don't need tto convince me that vegeterians can be healthy, I've been a vegeterian for 16 years and have no problems. However, I disagree with the claim that
strict vegeterian diet is healthier than diet with moderate meat itake (provided that meat is from organically raised animals).

Furthermore, please explain to me how would it be moral and ethical to force my cat, who does not want to be a vegeterian, to eat vegeterian diet?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-13-2002, 05:37 PM	#221
Aethernaut Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 422	spin & punkersluta, Meant to get this in the original question, then got sidetracked. Are you ovo-lacto vegetarians (or perhaps ovo or lacto) or vegans? Or even pescetarian for that matter? -SK

03-13-2002, 05:40 PM	#222
x-member Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: free Posts: 123	Bonduca: I guess one of the following: 1) Actual conversion to veganism. 2) Introduce us to the basic beliefs of veganism. 3) Berate meat eaters and show them their immorality. 4) Use debate with nonbelievers to firm their resolve towards veganism. or 5) Convince themselves of their own moral superiority. Jon

03-13-2002, 05:41 PM	#223
Aethernaut Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 422	As scary as it is, yes, they do make leather shirts. You see all kinds of fun things in N'awlins. -SK

03-13-2002, 05:42 PM	#224
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	Punkerslut, are you more interested in results, or in feeding a sense of misunderstood self-importance?

03-13-2002, 05:42 PM	#225
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	I'm not sure the exact wording, but Mad Kally said something similar to "Why do all the vegans go crazy when a vegetarianism thread is brought up?" I've seen some bitter responses to this thread from both sides, I wouldn't single out one or the other. Although I agree with most of Punker's arguments, I don't agree with his somewhat frequent attacks at peoples' character. I don't think most of the non-vegetarians here are being horribly respectful either. I'm vegetarian, but don't expect everyone else to be one. I don't consider it a choice though; I don't consider anything a choice. I simply value animals in a different way than some other people do for a few reasons. I don't really want to be too involved in this debate, but I also didn't think it would be fair to not comment on the level of hostility from both sides.

03-13-2002, 05:44 PM	#226
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	SK, My main diet is pizza and pasta. I eat lots of vegemite. I drink lots and lots of fruit juice. I'm not a great veggie consumer. I don't usually eat eggs (I never buy them). I do drink milk.

03-13-2002, 05:46 PM	#228
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Wool is an animal product...and certainly used to make shirts, gloves, pants, etc. The sheep are not killed, but are raised in similar conditions as other animals...do you wear wool?

03-13-2002, 05:47 PM	#230
alek0 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 640	Punkersluta: I don't understand what you're saying here. First, you say that experts say that know a lot about nutrition and then say that alfalfa is poisonous to cats, which is also brought up by experts. Seems like a dichotomy, "We recommend alfalfa for cats which is poisonous," -- or a highly unethical medical standard. Of course, if What I am saying is that animal nutrition is not a topic studied enough to be able to recommend "complete and balanced" diet. Alfalfa is recommended supplement according to several books on natural cat care, and it is present in commercially available foods such as Innova. And yet alfalfa is poisonous for cats. So I am asking you to explain on what basis do you claim that cats can thrive on vegeterian diet? Another question is can you explain what is the source of taurine in those foods? What is the advantage of obtaining taurine from supplement instead of natural source (other than satisfying YOUR moral requirements which would be unjustly imposed on another sentient being, i.e. cat)? Also, please address why such nice health vegan cat dry food contains garlic? Garlic, onions etc. are not recommended for cats. ""An alkaloid, N-propyl disulphide, present in both cultivated and wild onions, chives, and garlic, affects the enzyme, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase, in red blood cells that interferes with the hexose monophosphate pathway. Oxidation of hemoglobin results because there is either insufficient phosphate dehydrogenase or glutathione to protect the red blood cells from oxidative injury. The resulting formation of Heinz bodies within erythrocytes is characteristic of onion poisoning. (...)" Marielle Gomez-Kaifer, PhD, Department of Chemistry, University of Miami "Onion poisoning has been described in the cat by Kobayaschi (1981) who reported a hemolytic anemia and increase in Heinz bodies in cats that had consumed onion soup. (...)" Excerpt from Nutrient Requirements of Cats, Revised edition by the National Research Council. Ref.: Kobayaschi, K. 1981. Onion poisoning in the cat. Feline Pract. 11:22. " Please address the addition of brewer's yeast to vegan cat food. Yeast is a known to cause severe allergic reactions in some cats. All the nutrients in yeast are available in meat and eggs which are normal feline diet. Please address addition of vit. C in those foods. <a href="http://www.pangeaveg.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Pangea&Product_ Code=570&Category_Code=14-dog-cat" target="_blank">http://www.pangeaveg.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Pangea&Product_ Code=570&Category_Code=14-dog-cat</a> ""Cats normally synthesize vitamin C (ascorbic acid) from glucose, so there is no need to supplement the diet unless there is a high metabolic need or inadequate synthesis. Excessive supplementation may actually be harmful, because excessive ascorbic acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate. A high concentration of oxalate in the urine has the potential to contribute to the formation of calcium oxalate stones in the urinary tract." The Cornell Book of Cats, 2nd. edition, page 82 " -------------------------------------------------- As for medical articles on human health, I was just demonstrating that there are medical papers which support both points of view. You don't need tto convince me that vegeterians can be healthy, I've been a vegeterian for 16 years and have no problems. However, I disagree with the claim that strict vegeterian diet is healthier than diet with moderate meat itake (provided that meat is from organically raised animals). Furthermore, please explain to me how would it be moral and ethical to force my cat, who does not want to be a vegeterian, to eat vegeterian diet?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.