Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gravitybow · 09-25-2002, 06:47 AM

The number 144,000 is derived by the selection of 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes as described in <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV%2B7&showfn=on&showxref=on&langua ge=english&version=NASB&x=14&y=10" target="_blank">Revelation chapter 7</a> :

Quote:

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."

The 144,000

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

The plain meaning of the text is that they are all Jewish.

And this in <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV%2B14&showfn=on&showxref=on&langu age=english&version=NIV&x=11&y=7" target="_blank">chapter 14</a> :

Quote:

The Lamb and the 144,000

1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.
3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Sounds like they are all honest virgin Jewish Pavarottis to me. What's the JW take on this?

(edited for spelling/format)

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: gravitybow ]

sakrilege · 09-25-2002, 07:04 AM

Just to verify, one has to be a JW to be one of the 144000 or can a non-JW somehow qualify?

Susan

gravitybow · 09-25-2002, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Sunfair:
That paradise is what you usually see on their pamphlet covers- dressed-up smiling folks at a picnic with a few wild animals around them (usually always lions for some reason) lounging in the shade.

All of these are from <a href="http://www.watchtower.org" target="_blank">www.watchtower.org</a> , the official site of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Here kitty kitty!:

ohwilleke · 09-25-2002, 09:14 AM

The lion thing, at least, is biblical. It is a reference to lions and lambs lying down together in paradise.

beoba · 09-25-2002, 09:20 AM

Lying down together? Doesn't take much thought to bring up the sexual connotation in that!

gravitybow · 09-25-2002, 09:57 AM

Speaking of picnics, there are many pictures on the official site showing people carrying or harvesting quantities of fresh fruits and vegetables in baskets and wheelbarrows. I'm sorry, but if there's no babyback ribs there, how can it be paradise? And what exactly do the lions eat? bananas? Is a good whiff of the lambs lying next to them suppose to suffice?

And on the original topic of the 144,000: Revelation spends several verses explaining the exact enumeration of each of the twelve tribes. That is, there's not just a big pool of 144,000 that all these folk belong to, but each tribe is capped at 12,000. So, the next time someone tells you they are certainly among the 144,000, ask them which tribe they belong to. Personally, I would claim one of the more obscure tribes since it still may have its quota to meet.

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: gravitybow ]

sakrilege · 09-25-2002, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gravitybow:
And on the original topic of the 144,000: Revelation spends several verses explaning the exact enumeration of each of the twelve tribes.

Aren't Native Americans supposed to be from the lost tribes of Israel? Wouldn't they then have a better chance of being among the 144,000?

Joel · 09-25-2002, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Sounds like they are all honest virgin Jewish Pavarottis to me. What's the JW take on this?

If I remember correctly - The 144,000 was opened to the Jewish nation first. According to the JW's, there were not 144,000 Jews who followed Jesus and earned their heavenly reward. Since the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, then the 144,000 was opened up to the Gentile nations. Yes, according to them you do have to be a JW to be one of the 144,000 since they are the one 'true' religion. If you don't follow the 'true' religion then you certainly can't be in heaven ruling alongside Jesus.

gravitybow · 09-25-2002, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Joel:
...Since the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, then the 144,000 was opened up to the Gentile nations...

Of course this is still restricted to honest virgin vegetarian males who can carry a tune, right?

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: gravitybow ]

sakrilege · 09-25-2002, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joel:
Since the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, then the 144,000 was opened up to the Gentile nations.

Is there a biblical reference for this or is it just conveniately assumed? When were the JW's established and was anyone after the Jews and before the JWs qualified?

Susan

09-25-2002, 09:57 AM	#16
gravitybow Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Washington, NC Posts: 1,696	Speaking of picnics, there are many pictures on the official site showing people carrying or harvesting quantities of fresh fruits and vegetables in baskets and wheelbarrows. I'm sorry, but if there's no babyback ribs there, how can it be paradise? And what exactly do the lions eat? bananas? Is a good whiff of the lambs lying next to them suppose to suffice? And on the original topic of the 144,000: Revelation spends several verses explaining the exact enumeration of each of the twelve tribes. That is, there's not just a big pool of 144,000 that all these folk belong to, but each tribe is capped at 12,000. So, the next time someone tells you they are certainly among the 144,000, ask them which tribe they belong to. Personally, I would claim one of the more obscure tribes since it still may have its quota to meet. [ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: gravitybow ]</p>

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09-25-2002, 07:04 AM	#12
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	Just to verify, one has to be a JW to be one of the 144000 or can a non-JW somehow qualify? Susan

09-25-2002, 09:14 AM	#14
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	The lion thing, at least, is biblical. It is a reference to lions and lambs lying down together in paradise.

09-25-2002, 09:20 AM	#15
beoba Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Boston Posts: 699	Lying down together? Doesn't take much thought to bring up the sexual connotation in that!

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