Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Koiyotnik · 03-07-2002, 05:57 PM

Alright, I made the mistake of entering a friendly discussion over Biblical myth with regards to Noah's Ark. I'll try to piece together well enough what she said to me:

Quote:

but Noahs ark has been found..that..and before then..it had never rained.So no..NOW there is not enough moisture..but then..you can't rightly say there wasn't.. there is even a theory about the sky..it use to be like..pink or something i believe before the flood... plus water came up from the earth as well. And who says mountains werw as large then as they are now? with earthquakes and other natural occurances have altered the earths surface ALOT since then.

Quote:

.. underground springs? aquifers? there is indeed water below ground. As for the no rain before hand.. you can't say otherwise..for i doubt you have proof that there was.. I have yet to be able to ressearch that on my own.

as for the similarity between other beliefs.. yes.. indeed there is..the legend of dionycis is strikingly similar to the story of Christ... But being similar doens't make it untrue. Yes..that legend was create before Christ was born... but take into account the Old testement again... which WAS written before that greek myth. Daniel prophecied the EXACT DAY that Christ would enter the temple... Christ fulfilled hundreds of prophecies fro the Old testement.. so many its mind boggling.
Dionysis did not do this. I understand that you don't believe in the Old Testement..but again..battles that were recorded.. Kings and other things have many times been historically verified

Plus... the 2 testements were written at very differnt times, much apart... yet still they relate EXACTLY to one another. Christ (who, yes...did live..whetehr you believe he was gods son or not, his life has been verified by secular sources) fulfilled all those prophecies made by daniel, Isaiah...and many others

And, la piece de la resistance:

Quote:

not nessisarily.. there was moisture in the air yes.. whos to say what kind of humidity and dew fell everyday? it is very possible for it to work like that.

A lot of things were covered in those little quotes above, but what I want to center on is:

No rain?

How was there no rain before Noah? It's mind boggling, truly mind boggling. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Koiyotnik ]

03-07-2002, 07:39 PM

The flood is an allegory and here is why there can't be no rain before the flood appeared. If there was it would remove the virginity of Mary which is therfore also a metaphor.

No rain before the flood makes reference to the happy-go-luckey childhood we need in which we have a carefree existence (Senecan ideal). This paints a picture in our mind that life is a joy under the wings of God and that nothing will ever prevent us from carving our niche in the world as we know it.

It is despite this carefree existence that we must built an ark because the storm of doom and gloom is known to others but not yet to us and hence we must have the ark in place through blind faith only . . . which in turn is why Noah was laughed at by the atheists of his day.

David Bowden · 03-07-2002, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
...No rain before the flood makes reference to the happy-go-luckey childhood we need in which we have a carefree existence .... It is despite this carefree existence that we must built an ark because the storm of doom and gloom is known to others but not yet to us and hence we must have the ark in place through blind faith only . . . which in turn is why Noah was laughed at by the atheists of his day.

See, now, if my pastors had exposited the scripture with that much whimsy, I just might have kept attending church.

-Wanderer

Koiyotnik · 03-08-2002, 04:05 AM

Well, it's all well and good to speak in symbolism, Amos, but the person in the above quotes treated it as actual fact, and asked me to proove that there was, indeed, rain before the Great Fable of the Global Flood.

The fact that there was life before that incident, in my opinion, is viable proof. Without some sort of habitual rainfall (or even sporadic), life would not be able to survive.

Unless, of course, you go the route of the big guy in the sky just nourished them as necessary.

Which brings up the question, if he could support life back then, why doesn't he give a damn now?
Or is he just pissed because he promised us he'd never send another Great Flood, and can find no other way to wash his hands clean of us Infidels?

03-08-2002, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koiyotnik:

Which brings up the question, if he could support life back then, why doesn't he give a damn now?
Or is he just pissed because he promised us he'd never send another Great Flood, and can find no other way to wash his hands clean of us Infidels?

The flood still occurs but not as a physical flood and the rainbow image just means that we should not look for a physical flood.

If we want to survive this flood we must become ark builders in a faith that is built on reality or the flood will never come and we will have built the ark for no reason. In other words, the ark must create the flood.

Mageth · 03-08-2002, 09:37 AM

Some hopefully more concrete responses:

- I believe there are fossils out there showing rain imprints in sand and mud, many millions of years old, some perhaps predating the earliest fossils of land life. Don't have any sources, but post the question over in a Science forum and some well versed in geology can post you to them

- There were, I assume, rivers before the supposed flood. It would be hard to account for rivers without rain.

Here's a link to <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/canopy.html" target="_blank">talkorigins</a> scientifically debunking the "vapor canopy" theory in general.

And here's a <a href="http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/rain.html" target="_blank">christian biblical</a> debunking of the no rain/vapor canopy theory.

One question the no rain theory raises to me: So you say there was no rain before the flood, but there was a "canopy" which caused "heavy dew" or "mist" to fall? Sounds like rain falling from clouds to me!

Mageth · 03-08-2002, 09:46 AM

<a href="http://www.psiaz.com/Schur/azpaleo/HERMITTR.HTML" target="_blank">This page</a> has a couple of images of rain drop fossils.

Dark Jedi · 03-08-2002, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koiyotnik:
Well, it's all well and good to speak in symbolism, Amos, but the person in the above quotes treated it as actual fact, and asked me to proove that there was, indeed, rain before the Great Fable of the Global Flood.

The fact that there was life before that incident, in my opinion, is viable proof. Without some sort of habitual rainfall (or even sporadic), life would not be able to survive.

Unless, of course, you go the route of the big guy in the sky just nourished them as necessary.

Which brings up the question, if he could support life back then, why doesn't he give a damn now?
Or is he just pissed because he promised us he'd never send another Great Flood, and can find no other way to wash his hands clean of us Infidels?

Point him to the water damage from rain runoff on the Great Sphynx. The runoff is dated approx 10,000BC, well before the flood. There is no evidence of a diverted river or the like, it appears to have been caused by centuries of heavy rainfall in the region.

Kosh · 03-08-2002, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dark Jedi:


Point him to the water damage from rain runoff on the Great Sphynx. The runoff is dated approx 10,000BC, well before the flood. There is no evidence of a diverted river or the like, it appears to have been caused by centuries of heavy rainfall in the region.

As intrigueing as it (lost civilation that carved
the sphinx before the Egyptians re-carved the head), it is rather controversial. Some
geologists will claim the erosian is due to
wind, although I found the rain arguments
compelling (but I'm no geologist).

Koiyotnik · 03-08-2002, 04:07 PM

Thanks, everyone, for your input--even you, Amos!

Mageth, those websites were much appreciated (at least, by me.. not the theist.

)

Justine.

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03-07-2002, 07:39 PM	#2
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	The flood is an allegory and here is why there can't be no rain before the flood appeared. If there was it would remove the virginity of Mary which is therfore also a metaphor. No rain before the flood makes reference to the happy-go-luckey childhood we need in which we have a carefree existence (Senecan ideal). This paints a picture in our mind that life is a joy under the wings of God and that nothing will ever prevent us from carving our niche in the world as we know it. It is despite this carefree existence that we must built an ark because the storm of doom and gloom is known to others but not yet to us and hence we must have the ark in place through blind faith only . . . which in turn is why Noah was laughed at by the atheists of his day.

03-08-2002, 04:05 AM	#4
Koiyotnik Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St Catharines, ON, Canada Posts: 1,920	Well, it's all well and good to speak in symbolism, Amos, but the person in the above quotes treated it as actual fact, and asked me to proove that there was, indeed, rain before the Great Fable of the Global Flood. The fact that there was life before that incident, in my opinion, is viable proof. Without some sort of habitual rainfall (or even sporadic), life would not be able to survive. Unless, of course, you go the route of the big guy in the sky just nourished them as necessary. Which brings up the question, if he could support life back then, why doesn't he give a damn now? Or is he just pissed because he promised us he'd never send another Great Flood, and can find no other way to wash his hands clean of us Infidels?

03-08-2002, 09:37 AM	#6
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Some hopefully more concrete responses: - I believe there are fossils out there showing rain imprints in sand and mud, many millions of years old, some perhaps predating the earliest fossils of land life. Don't have any sources, but post the question over in a Science forum and some well versed in geology can post you to them - There were, I assume, rivers before the supposed flood. It would be hard to account for rivers without rain. Here's a link to <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/canopy.html" target="_blank">talkorigins</a> scientifically debunking the "vapor canopy" theory in general. And here's a <a href="http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/rain.html" target="_blank">christian biblical</a> debunking of the no rain/vapor canopy theory. One question the no rain theory raises to me: So you say there was no rain before the flood, but there was a "canopy" which caused "heavy dew" or "mist" to fall? Sounds like rain falling from clouds to me!

03-08-2002, 09:46 AM	#7
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	<a href="http://www.psiaz.com/Schur/azpaleo/HERMITTR.HTML" target="_blank">This page</a> has a couple of images of rain drop fossils.

03-08-2002, 04:07 PM	#10
Koiyotnik Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St Catharines, ON, Canada Posts: 1,920	Thanks, everyone, for your input--even you, Amos! Mageth, those websites were much appreciated (at least, by me.. not the theist. ) Justine.

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