Freethought & Rationalism Archive

excreationist · 07-11-2003, 11:22 PM

This is for Jews and ex-Jews and people who know Jews:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3784.asp
Answers In Genesis and most Christians would believe that Satan was connected with the snake. (some translations use the word "serpent") Most might believe that Satan took the form of a large serpent, others think he was the master of the serpent. The AiG link relies mostly on NT verses to try and justify this.

I was wondering what Jews who don't believe in the NT would think? In the Genesis story, is the snake meant to be an intelligent talking snake that has no connection with Satan? Or is he Satan? Or is Satan the master of the serpent? The supernatural Satan isn't mentioned in the OT much... in Job he didn't seem to be particularly opposed to God... I wonder what the Jewish concept of Satan is...

BTW, Genesis 3:1a says "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made." this implies that the intelligence comes from the serpent (or snake, according to many translations) rather than from an external source like Satan.

Magus55 · 07-11-2003, 11:45 PM

..

Doctor X · 07-12-2003, 12:07 AM

Yeah . . . what he wrote!

--J.D.

JaeIsGod · 07-12-2003, 06:11 AM

It's amazing how much Magus can say with so few words ( or more precisely , two dots). It must be the wisdom of God shining through him ^^

Shadowy Man · 07-12-2003, 06:25 AM

I'm not an expert on Jewish theology, but my understanding has always been that there is no "devil"; there is no hell.

The word "satan" comes from the Hebrew word for "adversary".

Grim_reaper722 · 07-12-2003, 06:28 AM

Another point that can be made about it being a talking sanke is the fact that God puishes it and all other snakes,

Gen 3:14-15
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

If it was Satan in snake form why would God punish all serpents?

l-bow · 07-12-2003, 08:03 AM

excreationist:

Here's a page you might want to look at:

http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

Doctor X · 07-12-2003, 08:51 AM

Shadowy Man:

Indeed. The earliest conception of a stn is something you stumble over--an obstacle.

--J.D.

excreationist · 07-12-2003, 08:59 AM

Grim_reaper722:
I agree.

l-bow:
Thanks for that link. Part of it says:

Quote:

...So now we have to revise our understanding of Satan. Satan is not a fallen angel. Satan is merely an angel with a dirty job. Satan does not have a rival kingdom. Satan is not in competition with G-d, and Satan does not want followers or worshipers. He's not even happy when people obey him and sin.

Satan is the angel who tempts us, and the angel who prosecutes us in Heaven. He is also the Angel of Death. The angel who tries to make us sin is the same angel who accuses us in the Heavenly Court, and the same angel who carries out the death sentence.

So, no, Satan does not wear a red suit, or carry a trident. Nor does he wear a business suit. Satan is a force of evil in the world that we must resist. Satan most often appears as a desire within you. Of course, there is no shortage of things in the world to tempt us to sin.

And Satan has many "helpers," many of whom don't even know they are helping him. A shady-looking character in the street walks over to you and offers to sell you some stolen property, for example. He's not Satan. He's someone who has not resisted Satan, and has decided to do evil. He's now trying to tempt you to sin, but not because he wants you to sin per se. He personally has something to gain from your sinning.

Whenever a human being tries to tempt another person to sin, it's because he himself feels he can gain something from it. It may be simply that he doesn't want to sin alone. Or maybe he needs your help. Or maybe he just gets emotional satisfaction out of seeing you go against what you believe (in which case he is a very sick person, but unfortunately not unusual). There could be any number of motivations.

Likewise, the snake in the Garden of Eden was not Satan either, though confused Christians think it was. The snake had his own motivations, which I will not go into now. He was what the Torah calls a "Seducer," someone who, for whatever reason, tries to get other people to sin....

So according to BeingJewish.com, it was just an intelligent talking snake, not Satan... though a little earlier it implies that the snake might have been a "helper" of Satan - perhaps without its own knowledge.

Doctor X · 07-12-2003, 09:25 AM

If my memory serves me correctly [Usually not.--Ed.], the gnostics who saw YHWH as an evil demiurge--prevents humans from achieving the ability to be like the gods--and the serpent as good--I believe some saw the serpent as Jesus.

Anyways, just goes to show that people can attach meaning to symbols that may have been not intended by the creators--such as the "sons of the gods" who mate with human "wimminfolk" becoming "fallen angels."

In the "original" story, what is the serpent? He is the cleverest of animals. He does, in a sense, tell the truth partially. What was his motive . . . was he a method actor? [Stop that.--Ed.]

I think that "originally" he was a plot device, a "trickster," a way of making the kids disobey and become mortal.

--J.D.

07-11-2003, 11:22 PM	#1
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	Do Jewish people think that the Genesis snake is Satan? This is for Jews and ex-Jews and people who know Jews: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3784.asp Answers In Genesis and most Christians would believe that Satan was connected with the snake. (some translations use the word "serpent") Most might believe that Satan took the form of a large serpent, others think he was the master of the serpent. The AiG link relies mostly on NT verses to try and justify this. I was wondering what Jews who don't believe in the NT would think? In the Genesis story, is the snake meant to be an intelligent talking snake that has no connection with Satan? Or is he Satan? Or is Satan the master of the serpent? The supernatural Satan isn't mentioned in the OT much... in Job he didn't seem to be particularly opposed to God... I wonder what the Jewish concept of Satan is... BTW, Genesis 3:1a says "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made." this implies that the intelligence comes from the serpent (or snake, according to many translations) rather than from an external source like Satan.

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07-11-2003, 11:45 PM	#2
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	..

07-12-2003, 12:07 AM	#3
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Yeah . . . what he wrote! --J.D.

07-12-2003, 06:11 AM	#4
JaeIsGod Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 760	It's amazing how much Magus can say with so few words ( or more precisely , two dots). It must be the wisdom of God shining through him ^^

07-12-2003, 06:25 AM	#5
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	I'm not an expert on Jewish theology, but my understanding has always been that there is no "devil"; there is no hell. The word "satan" comes from the Hebrew word for "adversary".

07-12-2003, 06:28 AM	#6
Grim_reaper722 New Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 3	Another point that can be made about it being a talking sanke is the fact that God puishes it and all other snakes, Gen 3:14-15 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. If it was Satan in snake form why would God punish all serpents?

07-12-2003, 08:03 AM	#7
l-bow Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hawaii Posts: 215	excreationist: Here's a page you might want to look at: http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

07-12-2003, 08:51 AM	#8
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Shadowy Man: Indeed. The earliest conception of a stn is something you stumble over--an obstacle. --J.D.

07-12-2003, 09:25 AM	#10
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	If my memory serves me correctly [Usually not.--Ed.], the gnostics who saw YHWH as an evil demiurge--prevents humans from achieving the ability to be like the gods--and the serpent as good--I believe some saw the serpent as Jesus. Anyways, just goes to show that people can attach meaning to symbols that may have been not intended by the creators--such as the "sons of the gods" who mate with human "wimminfolk" becoming "fallen angels." In the "original" story, what is the serpent? He is the cleverest of animals. He does, in a sense, tell the truth partially. What was his motive . . . was he a method actor? [Stop that.--Ed.] I think that "originally" he was a plot device, a "trickster," a way of making the kids disobey and become mortal. --J.D.

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