RJS

Maybe the book was based on Mageth

I don't think that experience would cut it for him/her.

Mageth

I don't think that experience would cut it for him/her.

How would you know, how could you presume to know, what experience would "cut it" for me?

Primal

What I'm wondering is do you mean that we cannot change our minds or base belief on evidence?

Questions of perception are obvious "no's" in matters of what one can choose to believe, however this is sketchy. N-Rays for example were said to be seen, Blondlot seems to have think he saw them. This illustrates the fact that not only is seeing believing but believing can be seeing.

Now convincing yourself after one chooses to believe can involve many factors, such as time, the belief's relation to current beliefs and social enviroment. I imagine it's harder to believe in Santa, instead of Jesus, Allah, the Tao or Karma not because of any difference in matters of evidence or logic but because of social influence.

In any case one has to define what one means by "choose" and realize the issue may not be very clean cut, perhaps one can choose one belief among a myriad of beliefs within an appropriate cultural/psychological enviroment. Perhaps clearer perceptions will be less effected by belief then messier ones. In any case the issue doesn't seem as simple as"one cannot choose what to believe or one can" to me.

RJS

You communicated your requirements here

and the target experience was a personal one where the person found themselves back in time - presumably something that could be the result of a mind altering natural experience.

wdog

RJS,

well if one was shoved into the past by a god, i would think the god would probably let it be known to me that it was him.

that is one of my many beefs I had with christianity, why the need for faith? makes no sense whatsoever for someone who has infinite love for me to require faith in him. anybody in my life who loves me makes their presence known to me in undeniable ways, like holding my hand.

neither do they require me to constantly ask forgiveness just for being myself (inherently sinful), which is by the way how your god made me. just imagine your biological father making you constantly ask forgiveness for the crime of being inherently flawed (and he 'made' you), under the threat of eternal seperation since he can't stand to be near your imperfect self otherwise! I would call that man an asshole, yet you worship such an imaginary being. It was my basic frustration with christian theology like this that thankfully started me thinking and led me away and conclude that such a being can't exist by definition. You see if god has perfect love for me, then why is it so easy for me to imagine a more accepting and unconditional love? Why am I more merciful? Such a being as described by christianity certainly cannot be god if there is one.

That wasn't the only reason that led me to nonbelief in the christian god, but it is a good one.

I think it is true for people who never really have the courage to start thinking about their life in an honest way. When I was in church, countless, if not all of them, were there to address their fears, problems, and weaknesses. We humans have a need to make sense of a sometimes difficult, lonely, unfair, and cruel world. We also fear death and have many problems in life that seem overwhelming. The church offered the ready solution- 'throw your life to jesus' and all is solved. I never once witnessed anyone come in and say, 'gee I am an otherwise happy and fulfilled person, but I just came to believe this on purely intellectual grounds'. I have seen many examples of the opposite though, intellectual investigation tends to lead people away from christianty.

If you want to see a bunch of weak people, just go into any pentecostal church.

Mageth

You communicated your requirements here ...and the target experience was a personal one where the person found themselves back in time - presumably something that could be the result of a mind altering natural experience.

Yes it could, and I would have to establish satisfactorily to myself that it wasn't. Note that if I did travel back to an earlier time in my life, it very well could be a "universal" experience in that it could be established scientifically (e.g. by genetic testing, by my "predicting" events such as Super Bowl winners, weather disasters, etc., and/or by me meeting myself) that I was indeed a traveler from the future. The world could know. (I'd have a hard time proving mysterious disappearing visitors claiming to be god or personal experiences of levitation to anyone.)

And as wdog said, I'd expect god to claim credit...

RJS

Hey, you should turn this into a movie. Oops, already done. It still all might just be one big mind altering experience, in which you convince yourself you are crazy. And what if God didn't take credit? That wasn't part of the original story.

I still propose that if a entity appeared before you, told you he was God, told you that you would levitate for the next ten seconds, then you levitated and returned to the ground after ten seconds, then the entity disappeared - that would be enough. I think it is just hard for you to agree with me on something.

Mageth

It still all might just be one big mind altering experience, in which you convince yourself you are crazy.

I already covered this when I said "Yes it could, and I would have to establish satisfactorily to myself that it wasn't."

I still propose that if a entity appeared before you, told you he was God, told you that you would levitate for the next ten seconds, then you levitated and returned to the ground after ten seconds, then the entity disappeared - that would be enough. I think it is just hard for you to agree with me on something.

Like I said, it's not for you to judge what would be enough for me, is it? That seems to fall squarely in my court.

It's not that I don't want to agree with you, it's simply that the creature-claiming-to-be-god-levitating-me example would not be convincing. Surely an omnipotent god can come up with a more convincing demonstration than that?

Give an example fitting my earlier criteria (more like the example that peteyh gave) and I'd be happy to agree with you.

(For some reason, Dr. Seuss' "Green Eggs and Ham" comes to mind... )

RJS

absolutely, it is 100% your call.

I was trying to come up with things that only impacted you - i.e. God wants to get your attention, but nobody else's at the same time. I think that is more "likely" and requires more thought. But your requirement as it not being "personal" puts us at a dead end. It is off topic anyway, so lets just let it go. (unless I think of another one )

Keith Russell

xeren:

And yet, there are people here who continually state their 'evidence' for 'God', and I continue to reject their 'evidence', and continue not to believe in 'God'.

(And, there are people here who read my reasons for not believing in 'God', and yet they choose to continue to believe in 'God'.

If we have no choice about belief, how is it that--upon hearing the same 'evidence'--atheists and theists nonetheless hold differing views?

How does your idea, that we do not choose our beliefs, account for that?

Keith.