Bobzammel

It is believed in many religions-and has become more prominent in more radical Christian sects lately-that "Self-love" is wrong since it blocks love toward another person.
But anyway, is self-esteem or self-love important to a person? Must one first love oneself to love others? Or should one love others simply with no concern for one's self? Even the most humble and pious cannot deprive themselves of activities dedicated mainly to self-- eating, drinking, sleeping and at least some form of physical pleasure for long without going mad--which the religions seem to agree on but at the same time also stress extreme aescetism as well. Even Evangelism is an extension of self--you want people to worship *your* God, the God that *you* worship. You can argue that you're not doing it for self, you're doing it for God, but it's still pushing it(And doesn't that make God/Jesus selfish?).
How can a loving deity give us these incredibly powerful appetities, and then tell us to cease from them as much as possible? And how much can we give to other people? We can love others and give money to the poor, yet I've never seen even the most selfless people follow the advice to the "Rich Young Ruler".
My philosophy is moderation, that a person's natural appetites should be sated but not at the expense of another person, and also that one should try to help others through good deeds, although one can only do so much. To practice "Death to self" and "Deathly Evangelism" is to court madness and hypocrisy.
Sorry for ranting-I'm not sure if I got my point across, but I've been thinking heavily on this and I hope I've made it clear.

excreationist

I think the extremes of self-love and self-loathing are bad for a person's personal happiness. Maybe there is a tendency for people who are too self-indulgent to eventually become depressed.

Maybe that is meant to show that all humans are partly self-centered and therefore deserve hell... unless God rescues them. (See Mark 10 and Matthew 19 - "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible")

But anyway, many Christians try to be unselfish partly because they're trying to avoid their own eternal punishment and seek their own salvation (or thank God for their salvation). I think a truly unselfish thing to do would be to volunteer to go to hell (suffer ETERNALLY - not just 3 days) so that other people are saved.

Deacon Doubtmonger

Ame-- (oops) to that!

Let's not forget the opposite pole -- having to be *way* too self-abasing. Christianity seems to wallow in self-induced abjectness. There's a recurring morbid and vicious theme I see in its writing: pain as virtue. Not only does Christianity exalt and glorify human suffering as a path to God and Godliness, but by extension, some of its writings imply one should actually seek out pain! A random sampling of "reasons" to embrace "holy" pain from my local library:

"In his infinite wisdom, the God of the universe puts pain in the path of his creatures. This draws them closer to him, causes them to rely on his strength and not their own, and helps them focus on heaven, where there will be no pain." (Chris Fabry, *The 77 Habits of Highly Ineffective Christians*)

"What is God doing about the sin? the suffering? the selfishness? the sickness? the death? What has He done? He has given all hurting human beings the freedom to choose to turn their crosses into crowns, their hurts into halos. With our free will intact, we can choose a reaction that turns torturous negative experiences into radiant positive ones that glorify and honor God!" (Robert H. Schuller, *Turning Hurts Into Halos and Scars Into Stars* [and Farts Into Hearts ] )

[On the hope of reconciling after marital separation] "God uses pain to produce 'treasures' in us. This time of distance between the two of you may be a time of God's putting you on the potter's wheel and shaping your life through difficulty and pressure.... If you try to escape the pressure you may miss an important lesson from God." (Gary Smalley & Dr. Greg Smalley, *Winning Your Husband Back Before It's Too Late*)

And yes, Mother(fucking) Teresa picked up the same ball and ran with it: "The point is not the honest relief of suffering but the promulgation of a cult based on death and suffering and subjection. Mother Teresa ... described a person who was in the last agonies of cancer and suffering unbearable pain. With a smile, Mother Teresa told the camera what she told this terminal patient: 'You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you.' Unconscious of the account to which this irony might be charged, she then told of the sufferer's reply: 'Then please tell him to stop kissing me.'" (Christopher Hitchens, *The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice*)

And here are my favorites, from T.D. Jakes' *Woman, Thou Art Loosed*, which I understand is a Christian best-seller:

["Explaining" Genesis 3:16, "In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children"] "God explained that birthing comes through sorrow. Everything you bring forth comes through pain. If it didn't come through pain, it probably wasn't worth much. If you're going to bring forth -- and I'm not merely talking about babies, I'm talking about birthing vision and purpose -- you will do so with sorrow and pain."

"Push! You don't have time to cry. Push! You don't have time to be suicidal. Push! This is not the time to give up. Push, because God is about to birth a promise through you.... God has promised that if it is to come into the world, it's got to pass through you." [Easy for a guy to say! If this dink-wit experienced one-tenth of one percent of the pain of a typical contraction, he'd change his tune but good!]

"If great things came from those who never suffered, we might think that they accomplished those things of their own accord. When a broken person submits to God, God gets the glory for the wonderful things He accomplishes -- no matter how far that person has fallen." [This makes God seem rather like that pedes nurse in Texas who injected babies with succinylcholine and heparin so she could claim a hero's glory when she resuscitated them! Also: If God gets the glory for human accomplishments, why doesn't Satan get the punishment for human failings? Why is it visited on the humans themselves??? :banghead: ]

How does this relate to self-esteem? My guess is it's the only pride it's "legal" for Christians to feel: pride in humility and willfully discarded dignity. If that paradox isn't a sure-fire depression and wackaloonery inducer, I don't know what is.

Deacon Doubtmonger of Denver
(who took a job transfer here from Boston and *sorely* misses the pizza there!)

"War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades.... Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude!" -- George Carlin

excreationist

Well Christians believe their status will eternally be below God's, but their low status compared to other humans is only temporary... e.g. "the meek will inherit the earth" "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

No I think that's unbiblical. But there is this pride:
1 Corinthians 1:31/Jer. 9:24 - "Let him who boasts boast about the Lord."

Bobzammel

Let's also consider the Old Testament; blessedness-mainly, sucess in crops and in military matters-is brought about through obedience to the mosaic law. Disobedience brings about suffering-both in this lfe.
However perhaps due to all the suffering of the Jewish people, they started to embrace suffering as a virtue, and this became more developed until the Gospels made it more clear. However one of the Christian ethics is to help relieve the suffering of others...in the gospels, for instance, the miracle healings and all that...so wouldn't that deprive the other of the 'essential' suffering?
Ironically, those who preach about suffering rarely undergo suffering themselves. Verbal suffering, yes; but not physical.

Opera Nut

Deacon you are right. Xtianity is so death-obsessed and so morbid and self-abasing it is SICK. I had to run off screaming before it ate me totally.

"If Jesus had lived in the 20th century and been killed, would all the Christians be wearing little electric chairs around their necks?"

--- Lenny Bruce

paul30

If I remember correctly, Jesus as reported in the Gospels said there were only two important commandments, and one of them is, Love others as you love yourself.

This assumes that you do love yourself.

One of the things I have always found odd about Christianity is its very emphatic stress on the self. You are enjoined to do and believe certain things so that your self will gain entry to heaven, and avoid hell.

I really cannot imagine and do not want this illusory thing I call my self to persist forever.

The Buddhists say the self is an illusion, and I have always thought so, too.

If you examine your self very scrupulously, you will find it made of a tissue of memories, habits, feedback loops, physical perceptions--all of which are very doubtful, and most or all of which will eventually be lost.

The Buddhists say our self is "an emptiness with a multiplicity of relationships." That seems pretty close.

Also, there is great relief in dispensing with the idea of the self.

excreationist

But the other one is this:

Mark 12:30 - "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

(see also Deuteronomy 6:5, Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27)

Well the people Jesus was talking to would probably be somewhat self-centered... e.g. Peter(?) denied knowing Jesus - just to save his own life, etc.

I agree although in the real world we are separate individuals to some extent. I don't believe in the afterlife though (in case you do) - and neither do a lot of Buddhists I think.

Deacon Doubtmonger

I might better have said "extralegal" or "quasilegal." It *is* unbiblical, strictly speaking, but I can't imagine anyone having to go through life *totally* devoid of pride -- IMHO, without at least a little, you'd be living in sheer despair of your right to exist, and thus dancing with suicide. But Christians can't feel pride through "normal channels," so they have to force it into an "acceptable" mold -- and of course, never admit it.

But then, what can be expected given the nature of the faith? Imagine the most vicious human managerial tyranny you've ever suffered multiplied a thousandfold, and your boss having the right to issue formal reviews of your performance daily -- nay, hourly -- nay, *minute to minute* -- and further having the right to keep changing the rules, criteria and standards, and justify his keeping you perpetually off base by saying he "works in mysterious ways," and constantly shrieking, "IF I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU FEEL, I'LL *TELL* YOU HOW YOU FEEL!!!" -- and all the while expecting you to believe he *loves* you! Any self under that kind of battering would hungrily clutch at every tiny scrap of pride available in any form. This is what Christians live with every day ... and then they wonder why people become atheists. Go ye forth and figure ...

Deacon Doubtmonger

INTERVIEWER (asking if her guest would do it all over again): You wouldn't want to be a Christian?

JESUS: No, I would not want to be a part of any group whose symbol is a guy nailed onto two pieces of wood -- especially if it's me! Buddha's laughin' ... I'm on the cross!

-- from "Interview With Jesus" by George Carlin