Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Blu · 09-13-2002, 09:43 AM

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Blu ]

Jayhawker Soule · 09-13-2002, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blu:
Unifying system - a system that has lesser systems within; a unifying system has other systems inside.

Give me an example of a system that is not a "unifying system".

Quote:

Originally posted by Blu:
The "Unifying Universalism" does not relate to naturalism because of the other aspects of the philosophy I have not mentioned.

Specifically how and where does you're "Unifying Universalism" diverge from philosophical naturalism?

Blu · 09-13-2002, 10:38 AM

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Blu ]

Non-praying Mantis · 09-13-2002, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blu:
When people strip away the human characteristics of their idea of God and then expand their idea of God, the Universe is basically what they would end up with.

Agreed, but this is not the same as the concept of the Judeo-Christian God.

Quote:

Anthropomorphism is what I believe to be the basis of human thought regarding God. Yes, it is a psychological projection that human beings seem to need. I also think that the common, religious anthropomorphism of God is why many people decide they are atheists.

Atheist argument I have observed: God cannot have human characteristics and also be omnipresent and omniscient so does not exist.

Correct!

Quote:

My argument is: God is the name for the anthropomorphic view people have placed on the Universe.... A personification if you will. Take away the personalification of the Universe and you are then left with the Universe not a huge bearded man dressed in a white robe flying in the clouds nor a human-like figure that looks down on humanity placing judgment on all the bad little people.

The name, "God" then is stripped away when you strip away the personification. It is more complete to see the Universe as the Universe and not the Greek Zeus-like figure that has plagued religious art and people's ideas of the Macrocosm.

In general, I agree. I am not an expert on Greco-Roman mythological thinking, but IIRC, they did not believe that Zeus was the Universe. Zeus was essentially human with some god-like characteristics.

But if we strip away the personification of God, then we aren't talking about God. We are talking about the Universe.

Quote:

I would go further to say that atheists cannot say God does not exist. They simply would have to recognize that the *personification* of the Universe people call God does not exist.

I agree with this, except that most theists have separate ideas as to what the universe is, and what God is. Most theists believe that God created the universe, and that the universe could not create life or that the universe could not come about "under its own steam". But, they usually believe that God did come about under "God's own steam" or that God never needed to "come about" (i.e. has always existed).

Of course, I am not an "A-universist", I believe in the existence of the universe!

I think that you are simply redefining the universe as God and then saying that no atheists actually exist because essentially noone is A-universist.

So what is the point of all of this???

Quote:

Does that make more sense when I state it that way?

No.

NPM

Blu · 09-13-2002, 11:06 AM

Non Praying Mantis,

My primary focus for writing any of this was because I felt I had a personal epiphany. It is something I simply got excited about and then decided to share with all the other thinkers. My personal point was to share my ideas. I suppose you and everyone else who reads this needs to come up with their own idea and put there own label and "point" to all of this. Please refer to all of my posts on this thread to get a better picture of what I mean.

The word, "God" is a word that I basically want to forget. The Universe is the Universe. God is the personification of the Universe. The personification of the Universe does not exist so the word "God" does not come into play here. It has no baring to me. I understand what people are refering to when they mention the word , "God." If this is what they need to do then so be it. My understanding of the word is what I focus on and also my acceptance that the personification of the Universe (God) will always exist in the minds of religious people. And for whatever reason, it appears that it is something they feel they need.

Have fun with it....

Non-praying Mantis · 09-13-2002, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blu:
The word, "God" is a word that I basically want to forget.

I'm with you on that point! I wish I could forget about the word "God" as well!

Unfortunately, theists keep reminding me!

NPM

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Non-praying Mantis ]

Blu · 09-13-2002, 11:24 AM

Erased

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Blu ]

Jamie_L · 09-13-2002, 11:27 AM

Blu,

I'm not sure I completely "get" what you're trying to say. On the one hand, you seem to be saying the Universe is God. Okay. But on the other hand, you seem to be saying that there is no personification of the universe. This would seem to me to leave nothing but a mindless universe, which is essentially what I believe (I'm a metaphysical naturalist).

I'll focus on one paragraph from your OP:

Quote:

Is there an organized aspect of the Universe akin to Intelligence? If so how can you prove it? The Systems within the systems of the Universe is all the evidence you will ever need. If there was no intelligence, then there would be only chaos... if there is chaos, there would be no organization. If there is no organization, there would be no systems. If there are no systems, there would be no solar systems... there would be absolute nothing. There would be no presense of Energy. There would be no life. There would be no earth, NO NATURE, No gravity, No electrons, no atoms, ... there would be nothing but an absence, a void.

Okay, if I get this right, you seem to be saying the Universe has an intelligence of some kind. You base this belief on the fact that there is order and structure to the universe. Do I have that right?

Well, from my perspective, this seems like an unfounded assertion. Personally, I don't see a compelling reason that intelligence is required for order. This seems to be where I would break with your philosophy.

Jamie

Blu · 09-13-2002, 11:37 AM

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Blu ]

Jayhawker Soule · 09-13-2002, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blu:
My primary focus for writing any of this was because I felt I had a personal epiphany.

That's very nice, and thank you for answering the first question.

It is now my understanding that you know of no system that is not a [U/u]nifying [S/s]ystem, with the possible exception of 'one Quantum Mechanic String". So, by using your phrase, we manage to say nothing, and we manage to do nothing but sound philosophical as we sow confusion.

Quote:

Originally posted by Blu:
Order to me denotes some form of "intelligence" some people call it consciousness.

So, order denotes consciousness but your Universe|Macrocosm|Unifying-System does not denote "a design or a purpose". Correct?

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]

09-13-2002, 09:43 AM	#21
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Blu ]</p>

09-13-2002, 10:38 AM	#23
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Blu ]</p>

09-13-2002, 11:24 AM	#27
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	Erased [ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Blu ]</p>

09-13-2002, 11:37 AM	#29
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Blu ]</p>

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09-13-2002, 11:06 AM	#25
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	Non Praying Mantis, My primary focus for writing any of this was because I felt I had a personal epiphany. It is something I simply got excited about and then decided to share with all the other thinkers. My personal point was to share my ideas. I suppose you and everyone else who reads this needs to come up with their own idea and put there own label and "point" to all of this. Please refer to all of my posts on this thread to get a better picture of what I mean. The word, "God" is a word that I basically want to forget. The Universe is the Universe. God is the personification of the Universe. The personification of the Universe does not exist so the word "God" does not come into play here. It has no baring to me. I understand what people are refering to when they mention the word , "God." If this is what they need to do then so be it. My understanding of the word is what I focus on and also my acceptance that the personification of the Universe (God) will always exist in the minds of religious people. And for whatever reason, it appears that it is something they feel they need. Have fun with it....

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