Aerik Von

I've been doing a lot of bible reading lately and it seems he can't choose between pacifism and violence, Revelations is his big promise of war on the so called "evil" but he keeps Paul back from the sword.

Xianity, unlike even Judaism seems to be torn in its presentations of violence. There are many more examples than on the ones above.

Is God for peace or murder? He can't be both and still be a straightforward and respectable ruler, and the depth of his violence-to-peace wanderings are too far apart to be even close to logical.

It's one thing to preach love for my wife and then walk down the street to kill my neighbors wife...

I geuss this random thought was an extension on the old "Is God the Biggest Mass Murderer of all time" thread.

Jobar

Aerik, the schizoid nature of God as presented in the Bible and the Abrahamic religions is a consequence of the ups and downs of the societies which have written the scriptures, and practiced the many and varied cults springing from them.

When the society was strong and victorious in war, their god was a god of war, vindictive and prone to massacre. When the society was weak and defeated, then their god became a god of meekness and mercy.

I'm going to move this to BC&A; I think it would fit better there, and you can get the advantage of the historical experts who populate that forum. J.

Old Man

Murder is a legal term. It presumes guilt. You are in effect saying there can be no killing without legal culpability for murder.

I don't think any society anywhere has ever adopted that view.

Another point that you overlook is that God was always as prone to inflict genocide on the people who bore his name, as on those who didn't:
- Thus the Assyrian conquest of Northern Israel
- Thus the Babylonian conquest of Southern Israel
- Thus the conquest by Antiochus Epiphanes & attendant massacres circa BC 165
- Thus the destruction of jerusalem AD 70
- Thus the fall of the Roman Empire at the hands of the Barbarians
- Thus the advent of Islam and the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Christians, and many millions more down the ages
- Thus etc

The reason for this is war is a punishment for disbelief. And disbelief occurs both amongst pagan nations and those that bear God's name. Both alike are punished.

Why is God justified in using war as a punishment for disbelief? Because as creator, God has the right to destroy what he creates. God is not to be a equated to a mere human subjected to human law. He is much greater than you comprehend.

Asha'man

Whatever happened to Free Will?

Where is the love and mercy and justice God is supposed to be famous for? He sounds like a sick sociopath. If this God showed up at my doorstep today, he would get my belief, but never my worship. I would have no choice but to become a Satanist immediately.

Gregg

This is such incredible, sickening bull. It barely deserves a response, yet it must not go unchallenged.

According to Exodus, God can kill precisely who he wants to kill, with pinpoint accuracy. When he wanted to kill the firstborn males in Egypt, he killed ONLY the firstborn males.

This could not have been very hard for God, since, as you say, he is "much greater than you comprehend." If God wanted to kill unbelievers, he could kill ONLY unbelievers. Presumably, this would not include young children.

Yet as we continue to read, we find God permitting massacres that are, for all intents and purposes, indiscriminate. Oh, from time to time God places a few "restrictions" on who the Israelites are allowed to kill, but they aren't exactly humanitarian restrictions. They mainly seem to be there to see if the Israelites will obey them or not.

So, having this ability to kill with a precision much greater than that of the smartest smart bomb, God instead gets fallible human beings to do his killing for him, and does not keep them under control once the fighting starts.

Of course, this doesn't even begin to address the sheer monstrosity of a omnipotent god who creates living, breathing, self-aware, thinking, feeling, frail creatures and then kills them in a variety of horrible, painful ways (and lets their souls be tortured eternally afterwards) for not obeying him or believing in him. If he absolutely must kill them, couldn't he simply make them cease to exist?

Now, excuse me while I go puke.

Gregg

aikido7

Jesus scholar Walter Wink explains that about 8,000 years ago a creation myth evolved that the world began when a heroic and virtuous male god defeated an evil goddess. From that point on, the overwhelming majority of world cultures play out the good guys killing the bad guys movie. In turn, this has developed into "retributive justice" which says there are those who deserve to be punished and those who deserve to be rewarded.

George ("You're either with us or against us") Bush is the most pathetic and public example of this misguided mindset.

I always liked this quote from Alexander Solzhenitsyn:

If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

Maybe we all have good underlying intentions and common needs. Rather than teaching people to become aware of their underlying needs we let them get addicted to ineffective ways for meeting those needs.

As a human document, the Bible reflects that schizophrenia. When the angry God confronts his pacifist Son, the young boy got so offended he had to leave home....

Old Man

Your argument is house of straw.

- If you deny the existence of morality, then God is justified because there is no moral standard by which you can condemn him.

- If you admit the existence of morality, then God is justified, because it means humans are great sinners who have rebelled against God.

Well, it was always open on people to believe instead. Where is the problem in that?

Old Man

Everyone has the freewill to believe.

God would accuse you of a distinct lack of gratitude. After all, everything you have, is yours because God gave it to you. And if you choose to be a satanist, what difference is God's mercy going to make anyway?

Gregg

What does this have to do with anything I posted? Are you now saying that because we're ALL sinners, God is free to do whatever the hell he wants with us, even the little children?That is not the issue. For the sake of argument, I was assuming that God IS justified in destroying people. I even avoided the use of the word "murder."

So, you see no problem with a loving, merciful, and omnipotent God making his creations die in horrible and painful ways--drowning, burning, stoning, dismemberment, and so on--and condemning their souls to eternal torment on top of that--instead of just painlessly "poofing" them out of existence as they sleep. All for being disbelieving or disobedient. You really are sick and twisted. I bet you still get your kicks pulling the wings off flies and the legs off grasshoppers, and burning ants using a magnifying glass.

BTW, your Bible makes it clear that it was NOT always open to people to believe instead. Pharoah tried to, but God kept "hardening his heart."

Gregg

Old Man

You are accusing God of being unjust. But justice is a two way thing. No human can remove himself outside of the universe and look upon the situation from another vantage.

Humans must perceive the justice of God in the light of their own moral perceptions, their own evil, lies, untruths, lack of regard or respect for fellow humans.

I agree that if you can't accept that humans are morally culpable, then you are unlikely ever to perceive God in the correct light.
Such things happen to encourage men to repent of their sins.
only if they don't repent.
Well you are quite wrong there. Human suffering is one of the means God (not me) uses to destroy the pride of men. What other means could he use?
Pharoah did not try.