Psycho Economist

Okay... after a side discussion on the finer points of who goes to heaven and who boils in liquid-hot-magma for the rest of eternity nearly derailed Evil Milkman's thread, I looked around for other threads about salvation, and they all seem pretty specific, and fizz out pretty quickly.

I guess this would be a BC&A issue, because it's (at the start) a discussion of biblical nuances.

So (especially Amie, Tercel and Proctors_gambit)... what is your concept of salvation?

Some possible issues to consider...

• Who is saved and who is not?
• What are heaven and hell?
• Why do you have the idea you do... where in the Bible or extra-biblical Christian philosophy do you see support for your answer?

Proctors_Gambit

I wasn't sure we were arguing about our beliefs on salvation, rather the definition of it from a Christians perspective, and in fact, the definition of a Christian.
The suggestions brought up, that being a 'good person' equates to a relationship with Christ, whether you believe in him or not is ridiculous.
The idea that the bible is wrong about the God you, and all your fellow Christians believe in, but you're idea of what he should be like is true because it makes more sense is laughable
(And yes you probably need to check out the posts on the other thread to get what I'm saying here)
Quite frankly to call yourself a Christian, and make up a whole set of new guidelines for salvation and characteristics of God to fit your impression of what a good religion for you is, is unbelievably stupid, and shows nothing more than the fact that you have invented your own religion that you choose to base your worthless faith upon.

To answer your questions though P.E. in my own words

No-one is saved, oblivion follows death for all whether you are a good person or not, whether you believe in a religion or not.
It ends when you die, you end : all your memories, traits and personality ends when blood stops flowing to your brain and the lobes that hold the information become corrupted.
End of story.

Heaven and Hell : Imaginary places used by religion to offer a reward for believing/following their particular set of values and a punishment for not believing/following their set of values respectively.

Why do I have the idea I do : Based upon evidence, proof and the logical problems behind the philosophy of religion.

-Gambit.

Vinnie

I might as well jump in.

"""What are heaven and hell?""""

Largely agnostic on the issue of the nature of the afterlife but I believe Jesus talked about it so I believe in heaven. I would also argue it on the basis of those who live lives filled with nothing but suffering then die. For instance, a starving child in africa who dies at age 13. That would make a strong case for the risk of free agency not being worth the moral-ethical evil in the world to me if that was the end of that child's existence. That is from my perspective on the problem of evil. I suspect non-theists might see it differently.

I also believe in "hell" though in a completely different sense then most Christians. And hell may very well be empty or it could end up having a few people there and it would be sealed from the inside. If those there wanted to leave they could.

""""Who is saved and who is not?""""

Whoever wants to be a part of God's kingdom. If you have trouble believing Jesus is Lord or that there is a God who loves you in this life this does not mean you are sentenced to eternal hellfire. God does not require you to believe "problematic statements" about him or else go to hell. Kind of like what C.S. Lewis said at the end of Till We have Faces ""I know now, Lord, why You utter no answers. You are Yourself the answer. Before Your face, questions die away. What other answer would suffice? Only words, words, to be led out to battle against other words."

I think in the "afterlife" you will stand before God and then there will be no caricature of him, no misconceptions, no unanswered questions or troubles. God's presence will answer all your questions by itself and if you choose to align yourself with him he will allow you to join his kingdom. I doubt many, if any will be able to resist the love of God.

""""""""Why do you have the idea you do"""""""

The Bible (not saying its inerrant or infalible), Jesus, personal experiences and cross-cultural religious experiences.

Now on to salvation. Some small misc. comments on salvation:

1 The human problematic. Humans are bad creatures.

This is not a statement that we have original sin or that the garden story is literally true (which would mean evolution is false!). This is not a statement that we have tainted souls passed on from our parents (traducianism). This is not a universalist statement that we are all Hitlers (though using compartive human standards for morality isn't wise IMO anyways). This is not a statement that our sin has created an infinite chasm between us and God and that we deserve infinite punishment for our finite crimes. Forget all those silly out of touch with reality notions and join me here on planet earth ;-)

It seems to be a fact of human nature that we are "bad" creatures which is authenticiated on the evening news every night. Us humans are largely preoccupied with ourselves. We are self-seeking self-centered beings. We also "sin" or "wrong ourselves and others". We all do not try our best to help the poor or those in need, we are not always as kind and as considerate as we should be, we live way beyond our means and complain because we don't have more. Many times we are not thankful for what we got and we only really miss something when its gone. All the wars and hate and pride and immoral actions throughout the course of history demonstrate this. The crusades, with hunt and inquisition all demonstrate this. Who would have thought? The crusades provide evidence for an aspect of the central claim of Christianity? Oh the irony.... There is CLEARLY much room for improvement in humanity. Don't look at yourself and say, hey, I'm not so bad. I'm no worse than anyone else. Look at youself and say where am I? Where could I be? How could I improve myself? Where do I need to go from here?

2. Guilt is a real feature of the moral life.

I put up a citation from C.S. Evan's The Historical Figure of Christ and the Jesus of Faith which is found here:

http://www.geocities.com/ilgwamh/csevans.html

Its a very nice discussion on guilt and the need for atonement (not paying off an infinite debt or anything like that!). A short citation in case some do not have time or the desire to read the link:

"Much more needs to be said about the nature of the problem and the difficulties of alternative, humanistic solutions. However, I think one can at least say that what Christians claim the incarnational narrative offers is not remote from human experience. For what they claim is that the story of Jesus is the story of how God has acted to deal with the problem of guilt. It is the story of how broken relationships can be healed, how our sense of being debtors can be overcome, how we can understand ourselves as clean and whole again. Those are qualities that we humans need and that we want. Whether the story of Jesus in fact offers us these qualities is another issue, but if it does, one cannot claim that the story lacks relevance to our lives today."

Salvation is God largely saving us from ourselves and reconciling us to him. God will forgive all who seek his forgiveness (implicitly or explicitly!) even those who have "intellectual problems" with the story of Jesus in this life. Salvation is not exclusive to "Christians" ( watch out for titular reductionist fallacies when you interpret that statement1 ;-) )

Salvation is just really going home. Sinning creates a broken relationship (between us and God just as sinning creaes broken relationships between us and friends and family. Salvation is mending that relationship. Repentence is a big part of this obviously.

The Cross is God taking the first step in mending the relationship. God takes the initiative step. He didn't pay an infinite debt to herself on the Cross which allowed men to be saved. God forgave before the Cross and so did Jesus (Mark 2:5)! What God did do was say that he is with us and that she loves us. She came to earth and suffered as one of us. He humbled himself and died a shameful death (a very shameful one if you understand the nature of crucifixion in the first century Romaan world). The Cross largely says, Hey, I'm here for you, patiently waiting for as long as it takes." Its God knocking on the door to our hearts and all we need to do is let him in. She is extending her hand to us on the Cross and all we need to do is take it. The Cross is one big I love you from God. That is the bottom line for me. God does not love. God is love!


Vinnie

Psycho Economist

Sorry PG, I just sorta lumped you in because you were in the last thread and didn't want to have a bunch of parenthetical clarifications. I know you're on the same side of this as me.

Amie

Gambit OH Gambit
what evidence and proof are you referring to?

Amie

Hello Psycho Economist

I believe salvation is the redemption, deliverence, forgiveness and remission of sins through God...

Only God knows who is saved and who is not. I personally believe we are saved through God...
Heaven is the peaceful realm in which God resides and where we go after we die. I believe it will be complete and total bliss.
I was recently talking to someone and they were discussing levels of heaven and hell. I could somewhat understand the concept of levels of heaven. However I am not sure why there would be levels of hell...
Speaking of hell, well I don't really believe in Hell as a place.
I believe Hell can be a state of mind, perhaps eternal separation from god however I really can not find any continuity between a loving, forgiving God and hell...

Bumble Bee Tuna

I was just about to post the same exact topic!

This should be interesting, I'm curious as to the different views on salvation. I actually opened a thread on it a week or two ago to little fanfare because I focused on the wrong things.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say PG's evidence is the multitude of religions as evidence of humans and their capacity to invent religions to explain the world. His proof probably consists of contradictions, possibly the problem of evil. But, it may be something else. That's what it is for me.

I'd have to say I found your answer wholly unsatisfying, Amie. "We are saved through God..."? How? Could you elaborate?

-B

Vinnie

I might as well jump in here as well. Read all this in light of my other post:

One way is through the Cross. We rebel from God and continually do things contrary to his will. Our relationship is broken and being "saved" is all about "mending that relationship".

Now if you have a friend whom you hurt and betray you will cause a rupture in your reltationship. How do you restore it? By apologizing--seeking forgiveness etc.

Now on the Cross God has taken the initiative. He made the first step. Normally when we wrong a friend we go to them and apologize. In this case God comes to us first and says yes, you've wronged me but I'm still here, I'm still your friend and I love you. If you are trully sorry for what you have done and show a desire not to hurt me anymore, but a desire to do good and to love and to grow in our relationship our friendship will be restored.

Thats the basics of it. A question for you. Do you consider yourself a good person?

Vinnie

Psycho Economist

One of the things I'm bound to do is switch back and forth between representing an atheist position when rebutting Christian positions relative to "worldly knowledge"... and representing (devil's advocate) the fundamentalist / Calvinist position when rebutting ecumenicist positions relative to the Bible.

Please understand this is all meant, ultimately, to be in good fun... mental wrestling or something like that.

Ah, the Divine Comedy. It's totally unsubstantiated in the Bible, but Dante made a whole book out of the idea of multiple levels of heaven and hell. I'm not certain, but it may have been a popular (in both senses of the word) belief at the time.

Basically, the eternal torments get progressively worse depending on the amount and type of sins the particular heathen had on his head when he died.

The worst place was reserved for betrayers of friends.

That's common liberal theology... but how would seperation from your god hurt an unbeliever? Sure, hell requires the absence of YHWH so the deamons can have the run of the place to turn people's flesh inside out while they burn unceasingly... but the Bible, even the NT, even the "good news", is explicit about Hell being real and involving eternal torture. (Matthew 13:41-42, 18:8-9, 25:41, 25:46, Mark 16:16, Luke 3:17, 12:5, 13:23-28, John 3:36, 12:48, 15:6, Acts 4:12... no, I didn't know them by heart.)

You have to accept an executive pardon (which includes an admission of guilt) before you can be forgiven out of prison... Is eternal hellfire really anything but the natural consequence of not accepting the forgiveness that's been offered?

Tercel

What Vinnie said.

Hmm that Evan's stuff reminds me of what I wrote last week. I really need to read up on theories of the atonement!!! If only I could click my fingers and give myself more free time...