seebs

I think she's probably not thinking in terms of the laws from Deuteronomy, because all of the punishments under the old law were abolished some time ago.

I'll see if I can find anything. Actually, if you want to point to something helpful, try 1 Cor 13. It's almost certainly helpful to her immediate circumstances. "Love is patient." The whole chapter is informative like that.

It seems to me she would do better to pray more and preach less. The prayers are less harmful, IMHO, than the preaching.

admice

To respond to Intensity here:

I agree with brettc's approach that religion should be left out of family issues because its a personal matter. I will try that with my fiancee -

When you're married, it's not just a personal matter, but couples can work out differences, sometimes (ex: Mary Matalin -- wife of Democratic campaign manager James Carville)

But I have realized she relies heavily on what her relatives and parents will think - how I could make things difficult <drawing huge outrage and disaproval from them>
I decided I dont need to make my theism an issue for them because it doesnt have to be: they wont be marrying me.


Oh, yes, they will. When you marry, you marry into a family and they do affect you. Maybe some of the older posters can concurr. Better to at least address it with her immediate family now.

Three weeks ago, her aunt invited us for dinner. When the table was set, her aunt asked me to pray.

Without batting an eye, I did:

But perhaps it wasnt exactly honest?

I don't want to be too harsh, but IMO you betrayed your beliefs and deceived them. You need to be able to stand up for your beliefs. When you get older, that may be all you have. Either way, address the issues now, it's MUCH harder later.

take care

Jewel

I think it was Panta Pei and he is still my hero for that :notworthy . Also, IIRC, it didn't exactly bring peace -- just the opposite. But wow, what I would have given to see the expressions on their faces......

Vicar, I hope your meetings with the minister help to bring peace to your situation. I cannot imagine what your or brettc have to put up with on a day to day basis. Hell on earth, so to speak.

-Jewel

Ted Hoffman

So I sold out by praying.

Vicar, I meant, when she lets you overhear her saying such words, she is passing a message.

HelenM

I think you made a valid choice, Intensity. I don't agree that you 'have to' tell your fiance's family you're an atheist.

She might be. Or she might not be. I don't think it's easy to figure out the motives of others. I'm not sure they always understand them themselves.

Helen

Vicar Philip

Well, yesterday got off to a pretty good start. I e-mailed her in the afternoon, and we decided to go see a movie last night, since she had it off. I arranged for my mother to watch the kids, and went from there.

We saw "Adaptation," which got rave reviews from all the standard.. er.. reviewers. I guess it was a little too intellectual for me, or I didn't look at some of it as allegory.

Anyway, after that we went to a little diner and got some food. Then out of nowhere, here comes The Discussion. We started out talking about all this very civilly, going over assertions I'd made in the past for which she had no answers, talking about why she believed, etc. She starts crying after a while so we leave and go home.

Once we got to bed, that's when it really started. We laid in bed arguing for 4 hours! It wasn't top of the lungs arguing, actually very subdued. But arguing nonetheless. Some of the highlights:

• She believes that since I'm an atheist, I don't think I have any accountablity for my actions, yet could give no examples of this.
• She told me, again, that I am an "embarrassment" and I bring shame upon our family.
• I have apparently utterly confused my oldest son by disclosing my beliefs, even though he already had doubts in the first place.
• Because I won't change my mind, I am a "self-centered bastard" and a "bad parent."
• Unless I come back from the meeting with the pastor with a newly strengthened belief in god, she wants a divorce.
• She kept saying over and over and over "This isn't how it's supposed to be. This isn't how it's supposed to be."
• At one point she said " I believe in god because god exists." I inserted "tooth fairy" for "god." She didn't like that.
• We haven't spoken since last night.

This shit is no fun. Have I said this shit is no fun? Oh yeah.

Mad Lion

She's stuck in her fantasy world of how her marriage and family life should be, and unless she can work through that and accept (or at least tolerate) your atheism, then it's doomed. It's entirely her problem...

Vicar Philip

B. Shack,

I just went back and read the last page, and I'm sorry for jumping on you. I misread what you and Intensity wrote. I see now that you were NOT accusing me of eavesdropping, just asking politely if she intended for me to hear her.

I am truly sorry. Very stressed lately.

Vicar

brighid

WOW … I have read through this thread and I have wanted to give the advise that some others have given, but at this point all I can see if that your wife is being totally unreasonable! You haven’t had some lurid, adulterous affair. You haven’t beat her or the children. You haven’t lost the house and cars because of a gambling debt. You aren't a drug dealer, a pimp, a murderer, or any sort of criminal. You aren't sacrificing the neighborhood children to Satan, or torturing and mutilating the family pets. You simply don’t believe in HER God, just as she doesn’t believe in any of the Gods or Goddesses, Allah, or any other amongst the pantheon of human mythological constructs. Does her disbelief in Allah, or the Catholic version of God make her an “evil” person? Did she stop loving you because you just can’t believe that Mohammed ascended to heaven on a horse? Has she betrayed your marriage because she won’t pay homage to Shiva? Is she some sort of criminal because she doesn’t light a damned Menorrah at Hanukah? How would she feel if you began to bully her, as she is bullying you into NOT believing in God? Where is her unconditional love and unwavering support of her husband according to Biblical duties, the Bible she is so fond of?

If her entire view of her own self-worth is dependent upon belief in this particular God, no wonder she has devolved into an absolutely unreasonable, irrational tyrant! She has built her world around a fantasy. She has pinned all of her hopes and dreams on the fairy tale of how a family is “suppose” to be and now that ONE, just one element has changed she feels everything has crumbled. She is the one with the problem and she is the one creating ALL the problems, failing to take any personal responsibility for her actions and reactions. She is demeaning your love and your character by saying the horrible things she has about you, none of which are true in order to justify her anger and hatred for the idea of what she has been told an atheist is suppose to be: evil, vile, and untrustworthy. It is her faith that is so weak that she cannot withstand her husband disbelieving in HER God! Her insecurity is so overwhelming she has turned into a dictator and treating you like a child. You should remind her that a good person doesn’t treat others badly because she believes that person to be “bad.” She can’t even handle you having honest discourse with your own children because any information to the contrary might “poison” them. All of this speaks volumes as to the weakness of her faith and the impotence of her God. If her God is so good surely He can protect her children from a little disbelief.

All I can say is that I am so very, very sorry that you find yourself in this situation. My heart breaks for you and your children. They are the ones being most harmed by this unnecessary tension, and it is not fair that you acquiesce and submit to this tyranny regardless of your belief or lack of belief.

I hope the minister is able to talk some sense into her and if he is truly a respectable human being he will be able to see that SHE is being the unreasonable one, placing unrealistic demands on the relationship and the one who in fact destroying this marriage.

I realize this is probably little consolation to you, as I am sure you are all to aware of the things I have said. I am not even sure any words can help you endure this situation and the ensuing carnage that may be on the horizon.

All I will suggest is refusing to be ashamed of your lack of belief in front of your children and always remaining calm in front of them, even when you voice disagreement. Do not ask them to keep any more secrets from their mother and be the good example. They will KNOW the truth about what is going on and unfortunately your wife is doing more to destroy their ability to have faith in her God then she is protecting them for this “poison.”

Brighid

Vicar Philip

Brighid,

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

You have summed it up beautifully. I wish I could state it this well.

All of your wonderful arguments fall on deaf ears. When I say anything she can't refute, I am met with a wall of silence. And then she changes the subject back to "If I'd known you'd turn out like this I'd have never married you." Well, thank YOU! What a fine how-do-ya-do we've got there.

I said, "You don't love ME. You loved my BELIEF in GOD." "That's part of it," she says. A BIG part, apparently.

Thanks for the kind words.