VivaHedone

Amie - is there any rational justification for your beliefs? You offer none, apart from unspecified 'experience' and blind and unquestioning acceptance of what you've been told. Or is this yet another triumph of hope over logic?

Theli

I think you got something here. Ofcourse, someone would say that we are part of the universe (pretty big), and this is true. But on an emotional level the universe is cold, unwelcoming and overall frightening in it's indifference to the human race.
So, they invent gods, simple human ideals that colors the world around them. Gives it meaning.
But they missed the point that they were the ones who invented the gods, so they also created the meaning of their world. Their minds gives it color and beauty, something religion seems to have forgotten.

7thangel

The need of God does not come from our personal wants and needs. Being a rational human itself I come to value life, much more of eternal life? Being rational, I have to give due respect and appreciation to the one who gives providence of all that are given unto me. If ever I am ignorant of the exact being of such God, yet it is proper to show my confession of His existence.

Being human, even when we were children ourselves, our parents mold us to "build dreams" and go for it. To hope of something good though we are not certain of it as we pursue them in our every step and in our every decision. We sometimes fail, but we know it is “worth pursuing it.” It is funny how that atheists discourage us to make ourselves meaningful in this whole creation. And how could they know the significance of their differences unto theists? The very same atheists who submit to that idea that humans mere exists, presume to be better than theists, who in their own existence, have the joy and peace the same as themselves. But if the truth be told, what makes difference of the world in atheist's perspective? For if there is no God, what makes me any lesser than any atheists? Or are they dreaming of grandeur by the very same belief that denies them of grandeur?

I am human. If there is no God, then I lived a life as a human; hoping, dreaming, praying, maybe ridiculous to others, but I am truly feel fulfilled. If there is a God, well. I still hope and dream as human, because I am human.

In fairness to atheists, most theists are irrational because of ignorance. But their hope of the existence of God is rational.

admice

Whoa, whoa 7th angel. Lotsa assumptions there.

Since there are volumns written on this and good debate opportunities in the Existence of god section here, I'm not gonna touch that except to say it certainly is NOT a given that there is "the one".

Perhaps some atheists do, however there are many secular Humanists here, including myself, who very much promote giving as much meaning to our lives as possible. Many atheists in addition to secular humanists create meaning from their lives. Have you seen the political section? activism? threads about charity?

you are right, I would answer, nothing. Several, even many, here make demeaning comments about theists (maybe even me. Tho the values I ascribe to include believing in the inherent worth and dignity of all people. However, this is what I am most hypocrital about. I'm workin' on it. I slip.). But you find that: the unfounded arrogance, the us vs them mentality, in people with all kinds of beliefs.

But my biggest issue with what you wrote is implying that hope and dreams and joy and peace are strictly the domain of theists (I'm not sure if you mean all theists, or just the ones who believe in 'your' god). That is so absolutely false. We can continue to hope, maybe moreso because we don't believe in god.

When I came to the conclusion that I didn't believe in god, I realized that everything that has been done by humans thus far in our history, has been done by humans ALONE. This is a phenomenal thing! Every act of charity, self sacrifice, love, strength, compassion, creativity caring... and hope, has been done by humans...WITHOUT THE AID OF A GOD. We are capable of SOO much. (Of course, it also means we have sole responsibility for this planet and everything on it.)

Denies us of grandeur? By no means! I would take you to task for this statement alone. I am in AWE of the universe, in all it's variety, magnitude and miniscule. I know of human acts that are nothing short of grand. Grandeur in undeniably not the sole domain of the theistic. Would that you could contemplate the world as I see it.

here's peace and hope to you.

7thangel

I understand, no problem with this one.

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Perhaps some atheists do, however there are many secular Humanists here, including myself, who very much promote giving as much meaning to our lives as possible. Many atheists in addition to secular humanists create meaning from their lives. Have you seen the political section? activism? threads about charity?

Honestly, I had not visit it. But for sure, I understand that atheists are indeed seeking something good, let us just put it in these simple words. And I do not really disagree with much about of their principles.

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you are right, I would answer, nothing. Several, even many, here make demeaning comments about theists (maybe even me. Tho the values I ascribe to include believing in the inherent worth and dignity of all people. However, this is what I am most hypocrital about. I'm workin' on it. I slip.). But you find that: the unfounded arrogance, the us vs them mentality, in people with all kinds of beliefs.

Thanks for the honesty. It is common indeed. But there are those who are extremely way off, just showing as opposers, nothing less.

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But my biggest issue with what you wrote is implying that hope and dreams and joy and peace are strictly the domain of theists (I'm not sure if you mean all theists, or just the ones who believe in 'your' god). That is so absolutely false. We can continue to hope, maybe moreso because we don't believe in god.

I guess, I may have misunderstood something. Because when atheists always ask for evidence for them to believe, my understanding is they do not live on hoping, rather they think that all things will come through working through it.

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When I came to the conclusion that I didn't believe in god, I realized that everything that has been done by humans thus far in our history, has been done by humans ALONE. This is a phenomenal thing! Every act of charity, self sacrifice, love, strength, compassion, creativity caring... and hope, has been done by humans...WITHOUT THE AID OF A GOD. We are capable of SOO much. (Of course, it also means we have sole responsibility for this planet and everything on it.)

One thing that convinces me to remain a theist are the prophecies. I believe that history is being manipulated by God, as shown through the prophesies. There is more than just proving the existence of God, it is about having knowledge of him. What is the use of God showing himself that he exist if you do not understand his godhead? You will not surely appreciate his godhead, and your life would be in fear or confusion when he reigns over you.

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Denies us of grandeur? By no means! I would take you to task for this statement alone. I am in AWE of the universe, in all it's variety, magnitude and miniscule. I know of human acts that are nothing short of grand. Grandeur in undeniably not the sole domain of the theistic. Would that you could contemplate the world as I see it. here's peace and hope to you.

I understand what you mean. But I am speaking of the rationale of convincing others that god does not exists when if we conclude that there is no God, every existence is meaningful. There will actually no difference between good and evil. As many atheists say, good and evil is relative. So why convince them to join the other side of the fence?

Jobar

Meaning, and good, and evil, are human concepts. What is the meaning of a supernova? Is the planet Jupiter good? Are black holes evil? The words only take on meaning at the human scale.

Tell me, 7thangel, can you name a single human action you think is absolutely evil? Or one that is absolutely good? So that no one else on Earth would disagree? There are people that think the Sept. 11 terrorists were heroes, you know. Good and evil *are* relative to the one who names them so.

You ask us why we so often attempt to 'de-convert' the believers who come here- well, partly, it's in pure self-defense! I can't think of a single theist who has come here with no intent to convert us unbelievers. (Some, to their credit, have stayed on even after finding us immune to their arguments, because they are interested in us as human beings. But precious few entirely give up on their attempts at conversion.)

And partly we feel that convincing a believer to open his or her mind, and examine their beliefs using the tools of rational thought, is an affirmation of human wisdom. Teaching the truth, even if it is a painful truth, is a better thing than teaching comforting lies, and learning truth is better than remaining ignorant- because knowing a painful truth is the first step in working toward alleviating the pain that truth brings.

Some of the ones who post here have been terribly damaged by religion, and by religious people. So you will indeed find some here who take their grief out on you, who defend the faith. I, and the other moderators and administrators, and many- most- of the regular posters, will try to keep this sort of thing to a minimum. But since all the unbelievers here are completely convinced you are completely mistaken in your religious belief, unless you can find some new and unconsidered argument, or present some never before seen evidence for your God, we will keep on trying to convince you you are wrong!

7thangel

Absolutely true. That is why Christ himself is figuratively the wisdom of God. And Christ refer to the church also. Everything good are relative to the benefit man, and evil is relative to things unbeneficial to man. Now, if all men will end up to death, everything will lose it’s meaning because everything will become relative to man’s temporary existence. But if man will have eternal life, then there is an absolute good, and absolute evil.

Here is where most theists commit errors in presenting God because they try to justify the actions rather than the reasons behind the actions. God justify man through wisdom, not actions. The same is when they try to explain the rationale of the existence of evil. All I can say is that in the pursuit of wisdom, we justify the end, not the things we physically do to attain the goal, whether the actions may be good or evil. Does not the Bible itself say that none can be justified by works? As the Bible said, wisdom is the principal thing. Without wisdom, every action is chaotic.

As you have said, meaning is relative to man. Meanings are for those who understand meanings. Thus we only put man as the beneficiary on the purposes of giving meaning. If a man does not understand the significance of good and evil he is considered valueless as a human being. And in some cases where a man becomes threat to other humans, we execute him. What I am pointing in here really is that we do not value something because it just mere exists, the same way we value actions because they are done. Existences and actions are valued to their impact on humans. And again, if there is no eternal life, everything boils down to just mere existences and actions.

Honestly, I myself have intention to de-convert you to the fold of believers. I know the majority of theist’s irrational doctrine’s impact to atheists, so I understand what you feel. But consider me to be different from them.

I indeed appeal to wisdom. My weakness, I believe, is that I speak about hope. So I cannot make and outright evidence. But as I try to show the pattern leading one to be convinced, I do not pose irrationality.

Taking grief is something that blinds our reasoning. But I also hate theists who pride of their irrational doctrines. The thing is I get counted with these theists. But consider me different from the usual theists you meet.

I am presenting different arguments so I am hoping you will take notes of them.

Biff the unclean

consider me different from the usual theists you meet.

That won't be too difficult because the usual theists that I meet all have visions of God and religion that are unique onto themselves. I can easily think of you as being different from all of the usual case of characters because they are all different from each other. The only common thread seems to be that each is sure that they are the "right type" of Xian, while the others fall short.

I indeed appeal to wisdom. My weakness, I believe, is that I speak about hope. So I cannot make and outright evidence.
You are going to have a bit of difficulty appealing to wisdom without any evidence. If you Hope something is, and you really want it to be, and you really, really, wish it was true…wisdom tells us that your personal desires have no effect on the real world. In fact you don't need all that much wisdom to realize that your 'hopes' are meaningless. If they weren't there would be no short, bald, fat men in this world.
There is no wisdom in claming things without evidence, just because you hope that they are true. Please get out your pencil and write that down

7thangel

Not all of us have the same understanding. Even the wise themselves disagree with each other. Not all who profess as wise are wise. Not only some are unwise, they are also deceitful and lacking discipline in themselves. You can find them in all walks of life. If you find out that I am not honest and stupid, you have the right to ridicule me. But let us speak of wise things, and trust each other until we find out if any of us is not worth it.

On the contrary, as human, I have limited knowledge of the future. And it is hopes and wishes that keep me to pursue my desires, and thus gives me a purposeful life even though at times I fail. I live with friends, though I do not know the future, I hope and wish that our friendship will remain the same, and thus we earn each other's trusts.


Ah, you are convincing of something you did not believe in the first place. Tell me, how did you conclude that my hopes are meaningless if they are still in the process of fulfillment? Please examine your reasoning.

I don't have to, I guess you have to call your wise friends and read them of this post and let them judge who is speaking wisely.

the_cave

Oh, bullsh*t Jobar. (Pardon me.) You're trying to tell us you don't believe in good & evil? I don't mean to drag you into this, but I just don't believe you. Sure, good & evil get called all kinds of things. That doesn't mean we don't believe there _is_ good & evil. You can bring out your ontological heavy artillery if need be, I'm ready.


Maybe so, but there are all kinds of atheists, you know. Or are you trying to tell me they have always been the same, big happy community?