Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 01-23-2002, 12:09 PM

In our limited mode of existence, we perceive a linear flow of time. From a higher-dimensional perspective, however, all time is laid out to be viewed at once. Wouldn't an omniscient god have this perspective? From the moment of creation, wouldn't such a god know everything that everyone would do. And if he is responsible for all of this four-dimensional creation, doesn't he really create everything we do at every moment in time?

Where in this equation is there room for free will? Or are we to believe an omnipotent god is trapped in a three dimensional, linear-time existence just as much as we are?

Jamie
Jamie

tronvillain · 01-23-2002, 01:27 PM

It's not clear that there's ever room for free wiil, at least not in the sense people generally speak of it. It's not apparent why bringing God into it changes anything.

Scrutinizer · 01-24-2002, 02:07 AM

Hi Jamie,

I'm not sure what you mean. Please first define what you mean by "free will", then how such a thing is precluded by God's seeing time all laid out before him as you say.

I agree with your view of God's relationship to time, but I think it's a non sequitur to say that God creates everything in time if he sees it all "at once".

Regards,

- Scrutinizer

excreationist · 01-24-2002, 04:30 AM

I don't think that the Bible says that God is outside of time, although it does say that he doesn't change and is eternal. Paul said that a thousand years is like a day to God and a day is like a thousand years to God. So he is saying that God may experience time differently but this doesn't mean that God has knowledge of all events in a non-linear way.
I don't think the Bible says that God knows the future.
In Deuteronomy 13:3 it says "...The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul."

2 Chronicles 32:31 says "...God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart."

This implies that God doesn't automatically know everything you are going to do. He might know where all the atoms in the universe are in this point in time, but due to man's free will, this doesn't mean that he will know what the future will be like.

A few months ago I came up for this defence of free-will while keeping God semi-omniscient - so he knows about the present, but not the future.

I think the Bible's prophecies don't necessarily mean that God knows the future in explicit detail - I think these are just his plans for what he will make happen, using his infinite power.

AFAIK I invented this defence of free-will... I wonder if anyone had thought of it earlier.

tronvillain · 01-24-2002, 08:13 AM

That would seem to imply that there is no explanation for human behavior and that choices do not have reasons. I don't see why anyone would call this "freedom."

Even if God does only know about the present and not the future (an extremely limited God), why would the human will be more "free" simply by virtue of not being observed?

Theli · 01-24-2002, 08:29 AM

If god was "timeless" but could still interfer in his creation, like punishing/healing/talking to people then his action would have to be set at the point of creation to occur in a certain point in it's time. That would mean that everything in the universe would have to be completely predictable. Thus "free will" wouldn't exist.

And god's interference with the people have to comform with the physical laws in our universe, since he can't change them after the creation of the universe had been initiated.

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

Scrutinizer · 01-24-2002, 03:58 PM

Theli,

Quote:

Originally posted by Theli:
That would mean that everything in the universe would have to be completely predictable. Thus "free will" wouldn't exist.

If we imagine God in the sense Jamie talks about in the initial post, God doesn't "predict" what's going to happen tomorrow in the sense that we "predict" something without seeing it. God simply "sees" what is happening tomorrow "at once" -- there is no temporal sequence. I fail to see how such a view precludes free will.

Regards,

- Scrutinizer

BLoggins02 · 01-24-2002, 04:04 PM

I'm an agnostic, but I still think that, if God exists, it is possible for her to see time in its entirety yet still allow us freewill.

There's a difference between knowing every step you will make and influencing those steps. For example, if you were to somehow give me a video tape collection of your entire life before you were born, I could theoretically change every aspect of your existance and diminish your free will (free will being defined as what you would have done had I not intervened).

Mageth · 01-24-2002, 04:16 PM

If god is omniscient, and knows everything that will happen, and knew it when (even before) he created the universe, then, IMO, free will cannot exist under this definition of a god. My actions are constrained by what god knows I will do. If I have a choice to make, I can only choose the option that god already knows I will choose. Therefore, I do not have true "free will" to choose a different option.

excreationist · 01-24-2002, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain:
<strong>That would seem to imply that there is no explanation for human behavior and that choices do not have reasons. I don't see why anyone would call this "freedom."

Even if God does only know about the present and not the future (an extremely limited God), why would the human will be more "free" simply by virtue of not being observed?</strong>

People's actions would still have reasons, except that their "heart" might arbitrarily tend towards good or evil. So it is a mix of determinism and randomness - a kind a randomness that God can't predict. (Maybe the source of this randomness is God's interference with the world)

01-23-2002, 12:09 PM	#1
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Would we really have free will from God's perspective? In our limited mode of existence, we perceive a linear flow of time. From a higher-dimensional perspective, however, all time is laid out to be viewed at once. Wouldn't an omniscient god have this perspective? From the moment of creation, wouldn't such a god know everything that everyone would do. And if he is responsible for all of this four-dimensional creation, doesn't he really create everything we do at every moment in time? Where in this equation is there room for free will? Or are we to believe an omnipotent god is trapped in a three dimensional, linear-time existence just as much as we are? Jamie Jamie

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-23-2002, 01:27 PM	#2
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	It's not clear that there's ever room for free wiil, at least not in the sense people generally speak of it. It's not apparent why bringing God into it changes anything.

01-24-2002, 02:07 AM	#3
Scrutinizer Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 245	Hi Jamie, I'm not sure what you mean. Please first define what you mean by "free will", then how such a thing is precluded by God's seeing time all laid out before him as you say. I agree with your view of God's relationship to time, but I think it's a non sequitur to say that God creates everything in time if he sees it all "at once". Regards, - Scrutinizer

01-24-2002, 04:30 AM	#4
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	I don't think that the Bible says that God is outside of time, although it does say that he doesn't change and is eternal. Paul said that a thousand years is like a day to God and a day is like a thousand years to God. So he is saying that God may experience time differently but this doesn't mean that God has knowledge of all events in a non-linear way. I don't think the Bible says that God knows the future. In Deuteronomy 13:3 it says "...The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul." 2 Chronicles 32:31 says "...God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart." This implies that God doesn't automatically know everything you are going to do. He might know where all the atoms in the universe are in this point in time, but due to man's free will, this doesn't mean that he will know what the future will be like. A few months ago I came up for this defence of free-will while keeping God semi-omniscient - so he knows about the present, but not the future. I think the Bible's prophecies don't necessarily mean that God knows the future in explicit detail - I think these are just his plans for what he will make happen, using his infinite power. AFAIK I invented this defence of free-will... I wonder if anyone had thought of it earlier.

01-24-2002, 08:13 AM	#5
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	That would seem to imply that there is no explanation for human behavior and that choices do not have reasons. I don't see why anyone would call this "freedom." Even if God does only know about the present and not the future (an extremely limited God), why would the human will be more "free" simply by virtue of not being observed?

01-24-2002, 08:29 AM	#6
Theli Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,567	If god was "timeless" but could still interfer in his creation, like punishing/healing/talking to people then his action would have to be set at the point of creation to occur in a certain point in it's time. That would mean that everything in the universe would have to be completely predictable. Thus "free will" wouldn't exist. And god's interference with the people have to comform with the physical laws in our universe, since he can't change them after the creation of the universe had been initiated. [ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

01-24-2002, 04:04 PM	#8
BLoggins02 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: College Station, TX Posts: 254	I'm an agnostic, but I still think that, if God exists, it is possible for her to see time in its entirety yet still allow us freewill. There's a difference between knowing every step you will make and influencing those steps. For example, if you were to somehow give me a video tape collection of your entire life before you were born, I could theoretically change every aspect of your existance and diminish your free will (free will being defined as what you would have done had I not intervened).

01-24-2002, 04:16 PM	#9
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	If god is omniscient, and knows everything that will happen, and knew it when (even before) he created the universe, then, IMO, free will cannot exist under this definition of a god. My actions are constrained by what god knows I will do. If I have a choice to make, I can only choose the option that god already knows I will choose. Therefore, I do not have true "free will" to choose a different option.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.