tdekeyser

These are left over friends from my girlfriends past. They are nice to us, but it is very rare we go out with them. This night they invited us to dinner.

As they began to hold hands (I knew this was coming) we asked to be skipped and just sat there quite while they finished praying.

During the meal, one of the girls (22 yrs old I would guess) said straight out to me, "I am unable to understand how anyone could not believe in God."

Shocked a bit, but gleefully waiting to answer, "Why not? I asked.

She explained, "I was in a car accident and almost lost my life, god saved me and that is why it is difficult for me to understand how someone cannot believ in god."

I said, "Was there human doctors there helping to save your life?"

She said, "Yes, but it was gods hand that kept me alive."

I said, "You might have surely died if the doctors were NOT there."

Her young husband could see that this missile was aimed well and interjected, "But god created those doctors and gave them the intelligence to do their job."

That was not going anywhere, so I said, "I would rather a human save my life. God makes more mistakes and humans have overall saved more lives."

The conversation quickly got the rest of the table involved and I was ambushed.

I remember going to the point that I would not worship a flawed god that created a human torture chamber. Human torture is never ethical, blah, blah, blah....

It did not matter which way it went, they had a excuse for everything. Even that Hell was an Eye-for-an-eye for not believing, so it WAS ethical!

I'm not sure any of them heard any logic there. The evening went well despite of the conversation and they even invited us out again in the near future.

Irishbrutha

So you'd posit that hell is unethical? Make your argument. And please refrain from the standard "because I don't like it" argument. Unless, of course, you can show that "because I don't like it" warrants my belief.
-Shaun

scarmig

I don't think you lost. Beat down maybe, frustrated. But you cannot "win" those debates. Sucessfully iterating your thoughts and problems , regardless of how well they are received, is never a loss.

tdekeyser

Ethics of hell:

It is not ethical because human torture is NEVER ethical.
It is not just because there is only one judgement-torture
It is unequal to ANY crime. Even murder.

Is this enough?

Kvalhion

The 'gawd saved me from xxxx experience' testimony is a bunch of crap. All you have to do is point out thousands of other cases where the person in a similar situation died. A person can no more say it was god that saved them then they can say that it was god that killed the other people.

Not that such logic would have any effect upon the lobotimized followers. They would say that those that die horribly in crashes are lucky because they are now with god.

I also don't think you lost because there is simply no way to win. When one abandones logic and reasoning, there is simply no point in arguing.

tdekeyser

You know, I even used this point and it never dawned on them:

I asked the girl, "Would you ever put your daughter in a closet and chain her up?"

Girl said, "Of course not."

I said, "How about taking that chained up little girl and not feeding her? How about letting her sleep in her own feces? How about letting bugs cover her body and bite her to death?"

The girl said, "That is horrible, no I would never do that."

I said, "Why? Does something tell you that is wrong?"

She said, "Yes, my discernment tells me that is wrong."

I said, "Then what does your discernment tell you about what God is doing to His children?"

Girl says, "That is different, god is just and He know all."

What the hell can I say to an answer like that? That is about as blunt as it gets....

mike_decock

Perhaps a good response to a "God saved my life" testimony would be:

"How is that any different from any other supersitition? What about the people who say they were saved because of their lucky rabbit's foot or the crystal they keep hanging on their rear view mirror?"

-Mike...

Irishbrutha

tdkeyser,

A couple of questions. First we need to agree on a legitimate definition of torture. Torture is the unjustified causing of pain of a living being (animal, human, or otherwise). Next lets' talk about hell. It's a separation from God. It's emotional pain for eternity.

Now would you call prison torture? I've been there once overnight. It was certainly a seemingly excessive amount of emotional turmoil. And yet all of us would justify the use of punishment in our society as retribution for criminal acts. Do that...on a bigger scale. Only here's the thing. God's moral code is the standard, and He is judge. What's even worse about that is that we can't achieve that code. And God, being perfectly Good, would be totally justified in sending all of us to this place called hell. Yet he didn't. He went above justice and provided a way out. Even if you have a problem with the above argument that he would be justified in sending us to hell without it being possible for us to achieve his moral standard, he goes on to meet even your minimum level of moral obligation. He allowed us the opportunity to attain to his moral code even though we are intrinsically incapable (I'm talking, of course, about Christ's death and resurrection through which His righteousness is made ours). So when we don't utilize that opportunity, he is perfectly justified in punishing those of us who don't.
-Shaun

Jack the Bodiless

And here's the thing: it isn't.
Numerous logical fallacies there. Fallacy of mere assertion and non-sequitur, for starters. Sending us to Hell can only be "just" if WE deserve it: it has nothing to do with the attributes of God. By analogy, most people would agree that putting an end to Osama Bin Laden is just, even if the person who does it is a crack dealer and wife-beater.
Nothing we finite humans can do can possibly justify ETERNAL suffering. Therefore God is unjust.

nermal

Geesh! Why not the simple and elegant:

If God were there to save you after the accident, why wasn't he there before the car came to a disastrous stop? Was he eating lunch?

I hate this kind of reasoning, like the ubiquitous:
You were lucky, if the bullet hit you one inch to the left, you'd be paralyzed.

Lucky??!! Hell, if I was lucky, I wouldn't have been shot!

BAAAAHHHHH!
Ed