Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dr Rick · 01-17-2003, 03:01 PM

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Originally posted by Bede
...linking to the work of internet scribblers and out of date anti-Christian polemic is not going to win you any arguments.

Neither will this:

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I am a history graduate student at a wholly secular university.

...or this:

Just for the record (again) as so many of you cannot read:

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I have not justified, defended or called murder or torture acceptable.

He just rationalized and trivialized it, that's all.

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The fact that an attempt to look at the real history and get to the facts is immediately considered to be any of those things, is exactly the witch hunt mentality.

Before leaping to this conclusion, Bede should someday try presenting real history and facts and not some version limited to one aspect of the atrocities committed during the Middle Ages mixed with really lame chest-pounding ("Back-off, man: I'm a genuine graduate student"

) and ad hominems

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While it is no surprise to see it manifested among ignorant human beings such as yourselves, it is ironic you consider yourselves rational and preach tolerance.

This is unlikely to win any arguments, either.

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[An] effort to shut down rational debate by emotional rants...

...is what Bede is doing now.

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....is just like the tactics of witch hunters like Jean Bodin who insisted that as witch craft was so awful that no evidence or hard facts were needed. Witches ate babies, he said, and faced with such a horrific story who cares if that is a bit of an exaggeration.

That's the fallacy of false analogy...

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As no one has challenged my facts, merely the impiety of bringing them up, the job here is done.

...and here he's just desperately ignoring the refutations.

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Anyway, I'm off back to the Bible board...

...where he'll be able to post and whine without being challenged by us illiterate, ignorant witch-huntering headbangers:

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...as clearly this one is inhabited by more than its fair share of headbangers. I never thought I would be running back to the arms of Toto for intelligent conversation...!

That's just not much of a winning argument.

After that childish little rant, we get treated to this tidbit of sycophancy:

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
How about just refuting erroneous and exaggerated statements? That's all Bede has done. But if believing in historical falsehoods or falsely accusing modern Chritians of "justifying" torture helps you maintain your prejudice, it is your right to cling to it.

What those putative falsehoods are isn't clear, as Layman hasn't presented any refutations of the numbers, either. Instead, he offers the YMCA and the Red Cross as though these modern-day organizations might somehow mitigate the atrocities of the Crusades and Inquisitions: "So what if we killed and tortured millions? We've still got a really swell basketball league."

Rick:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Yellum Notnef · 01-17-2003, 03:33 PM

And right before he scurried off he just has to take a completely unmerited cheap shot at Toto......

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I never thought I would be running back to the arms of Toto for intelligent conversation...!

What a jerk!

IMO Toto offers some of the most intelligent conversation of anyone on this forum.

Goliath · 01-17-2003, 03:34 PM

This thread makes me sick. The fact that religion has caused ONE death--hell, the fact that religion has caused a billionth of a nanosecond of pain to anyone is absolutely unacceptable. No amount of good deeds or "it wasn't that bad" mollycoddling can ever erase the deeply entrenched bloodstains of xianity.

Sincerely,

Goliath

beyelzu · 01-17-2003, 04:40 PM

well, i for one am glad that christians tortured and killed only a few hundred thousand people. now that i know this, i am so going out to become skyfarian. logic be damned. the biggest problem is of course i will have to find someone to read the bible to me cuz i am just a poor retarded atheist.

i do find it interesting that bede claims to not be justifying the torture and muder of witches, he's "just pointing out that atheists inflate the number" i think that"s a logical fallacy. lying...

EDITED CUZ I AM A POOR DUMB NON-SPELLING ATHEIST

Amergin · 01-17-2003, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
To all: please note that I am NOT defending the Inquisition and never have. Also, note that I am NOT claiming that Christianity did not help cause witch trials - I think it played a major part in linking peasant beliefs to diabolism. Simply calling Dr Rick on his millions and millions crap does not involve condoning the reality.

Am: We don't know how many people were killed on trumped up charges of withcraft. Many may never have been reported or the records purged by the churches later when the activity was condemned. I have no idea it may have only been a few hundred and blow out of proportion, much like the very few Christians actually killed in the Roman Colliseum(sp?) or perhaps many millions were actually killed in the many small villages with poor record keeping. The bottom line is that any who were executed for witchcraft were murdered, and biblical bollocks were just an excuse.

"Sojourner,

First a big thank you for keeping things in perspective and I hope me saying that does not mean you get into even more trouble with the headbangers.

You asked: "My interest was how the Inquisition addressed �bad� magic, not good magic. Did your quote address both?"

Am: That is assuming that there is such a thing as magic of any kind, bad or good.

"Sorry, I misunderstood your interest here. Maleficia is magic that causes harm (bad magic) and is what witches are accused of (together with devil worship). The authorities were usually not bothered with the wise women and cunning men found in every village doing folk healing, nature magic and divination etc, unless they got caught up in a witch hunt. The Inquistion did worry about these people as they thought that even magic used to do good was wrong (as it came from diabolic powers)."

Am: As the rural people retained many of the old pagan rites, these were tolerated in the Celtic Christian Church and actually incorporated. When Rome established authority, it did not like the pagan influences. Old god became new demons. Old miracles became new magic. Christian magic became miracles. Non-Christian magic was probably not tolerated very well. I thought the Inquisition was mainly directed at heretics, converted Jews and Muslims, unbelievers like Giordano Bruno, questioners like Gallileo. They did persecute/prosecute witches as well but I doubt if the data on that is reliable.

"If the Inquisition thought they had proved you had hurt someone with magic, I expect you would be in very big trouble. But this was hard to prove using the evidential procedures they had."

Am: Hard to prove? Wasn't the proof that you did something like tying a woman to a boulder, throwing her into a lake and if she drowned and died, she was innocent. If she survived then she was guilty. Or was that Monty Python??

" It was much easier to prove a wise woman was selling charms - you did not have to prove to charms worked to nail her. But in this case the punishment would be relatively mild unless you were a repeat offender. As she was not practicing maleficia she was not what people thought of as a witch and might be quite popular in her village. There is loads on popular magic in Keith Thomas's magnum opus "Religion and the Decline of Magic" which deals with England (so nothing on the Inquisition) but gives a fascinating glimpse of a forgotten culture."

Am: Is that book available in English? Or Gaelic?

"I thought we agreed Scholastics began interpreting most (if not all) magic as having its source from the Devil and was therefore evil. I do not see how you are �connecting the dots� to imply �good� magic is suddenly relevent during the time period of the witch trials."

Am: I am not sure what you are saying here. What is "good magic" if the church called all non-Christian magic (miracles) as coming from the devil?

"Agreed, but I must now add one more point. It seems that figures like Albertus Magnus in his Specula Astronimae were willing to allow what we might call 'magic' but they were less sure about. As long as spirits were not involved you could make a case for things like the weapon salve, sympathetic healing (which Francis Bacon believed in), astrological sigils and stuff as just about OK. You will note that this is learned magic so does not help our witch very much. Others, fllowing Augustine and probably the dominant school, thought that the whole lot was out of order and came from the devil. My course at the moment is 'Renaissance Science, Religion and Magic' and the professor does not thing there is much difference between the three."

Am: Science came out of alchemy, magic, and such. It began to separate as scientific method developed and its difference from magic and religion became more apparent. Many early scientists were in fact clergymen, which perhaps gave them a mantle of protection from prosecution.

"Out of interest, here is my bibliography from my witches essay (but Levack is definitely the place to start):

Briggs, Robin Witches and Neighbours London 1996
Clark, Stuart 'Inversion, Misrule and the Meaning of Witchcraft' Past and Present 87 1980
Clark, Stuart Thinking with Demons Oxford 1997
Guskin, Phyllis J 'The Context of Witchcraft: The Case of Jane Wenham (1712)" Eighteenth-Century Studies 15:1 1981
Horsley, Richard A 'Who Were the Witches? The Social Roles of the Accused in European Witch Trials' Journal of Interdisciplinary History 9:4 1979
Jobe, Thomas Harmon 'The Devil in Restoration Science: the Glanvill-Webster Witchcraft Debate' Isis 72:3 1981
Levack Brian P The Witch-hunt in Early Modern Europe Harlow 1995
Monter, E William 'The Historiography of European Witchcraft: Progress and Prospects' Journal of Interdisciplinary History 2:4 1972
Monter, E William 'Witchcraft in Geneva, 1537 - 1662' The Journal of Modern History 43:2 1971
Peters, Edward Inquisition Berkeley 1989
Soman, Alfred 'The Parlement of Paris and the Great Witch Hunt (1545-1640)' Sixteenth Century Journal 9:2 1978
Thomas, Keith Religion and the Decline of Magic London 1971"

Am: Thanks, there is some interesting reading there. I am an agnostic and do not give credibility to magic/miracles of any kind, but I know they have had often fatal consequences to many innocent victims of such superstition.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Amergin
"Faith is what you know, ain't so" Mark Twain

Dr Rick · 01-17-2003, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amergin
We don't know how many people were killed on trumped up charges of withcraft...it may have only been a few hundred and blow out of proportion, much like the very few Christians actually killed in the Roman Colliseum(sp?) or perhaps many millions...

It's very probable that millions of witches were not killed during the Inquisitions, but that's just an apologistic slight of hand; very likely, millions of non-witches labeled as "heretics," Prostestants, Arians, Cathari, Albigensians, Jews, and others were slaughtered during these campaigns.

Rick

Amergin · 01-17-2003, 05:42 PM

Bede: "Just for the record (again) as so many of you cannot read: "

As a Half-Irish Scot, I was often running into arrogant English snobs, at university, even in Edinburgh. Ah, this chap makes me feel quite at home.

Amergin
Vote SNP, "Free Scotland"

Amergin · 01-17-2003, 05:48 PM

You said: "It's very probable that millions of witches were not killed during the Inquisitions, but that's just an apologistic slight of hand; very likely, millions of non-witches labeled as "heretics," Prostestants, Arians, Cathari, Albigensians, Jews, and others were slaughtered during these campaigns. "

Both of us are only scraping the surface of the evils inflicted by those who worship the Christian God. Your examples are horrific in themselves. We might even add the fate of native North Americans and South Americans to zealous religiosity of those who abused and killed, millions.

Not a single religiously motivated murder is ever justified. But if the attempt at justification is based on clearly supportive scriptures (Old Testament of the Bible) then those scriptures are immoral and unfit for children to read under age 18.

Amergin

Dr Rick · 01-17-2003, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amergin
Both of us are only scraping the surface of the evils inflicted by those who worship the Christian God. Your examples are horrific in themselves. We might even add the fate of native North Americans and South Americans to zealous religiosity of those who abused and killed, millions.

Not a single religiously motivated murder is ever justified. But if the attempt at justification is based on clearly supportive scriptures (Old Testament of the Bible) then those scriptures are immoral and unfit for children to read under age 18.

I agree with you, except that I think older children should study the Bible under adult supervision to learn and understand what happens when faith is allowed to replace rational thought and decency.

BTW, welcome to the SecWeb.

Rick

Opera Nut · 01-17-2003, 09:41 PM

Well it wasn't only the Catholics.

Back in the 1500s, a dude named Michael Servetus in Transylvania was writing to John Calvin. Servetus insisted on two things: that there was One God & that the Holy Spirit is in Every One of us, and Jesus was a very special man but not the Messiah; (Unitarianism)

Secondly, that there was no salvation for the Elect only; that all humans were saved (Universal Salvation);

Thus, he was the very first person to outline the principles of the Unitarian Church and the Universalist Church. These churches grew up in New England in the abolitionist movement of the mid-1800s. The two denominations merged in the early 1960s.

Servetus made John Calvin extremely mad. So Calvin said "Come to Geneva, so we can discuss this further." This turned out to be entrapment.

After Servetus got there, John Calvin burned him alive at the stake, convinced he was doing the right thing to a heretic.

Today in Geneva, there is a statue of Michael Servetus, but NO statue of John Calvin.

Protestant persecution of heretics may have been less in number, but I agree with Bridgid that the murder of ANY ONE by any organized religion is too many.

(This is in the third episode of Cosmos): Kepler's mother was imprisoned for being a witch for telling Kepler stories when he was little, and chants about going to the moon, which is what motivated him to find out what the orbits of the planets were like and establish the laws of planetary motion that really got the Copernican/Newtonian revolution going.

I guess bede either doesn't get it or ignores it consciously, the statement made at the end of Schindler's List, because it's by Jews and therefore not holy enough:

Anybody remember the ring that was made by the inmates of Schindler's factory???

In the Talmud it says "He who saves one life saves the world entire; he who destroys one life destroys the world entire".

01-17-2003, 05:42 PM	#77
Amergin Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Tir na nOg Posts: 37	I am already feeling at home, almost Bede: "Just for the record (again) as so many of you cannot read: " As a Half-Irish Scot, I was often running into arrogant English snobs, at university, even in Edinburgh. Ah, this chap makes me feel quite at home. Amergin Vote SNP, "Free Scotland"

01-17-2003, 05:48 PM	#78
Amergin Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Tir na nOg Posts: 37	Rick, I agree totally. You said: "It's very probable that millions of witches were not killed during the Inquisitions, but that's just an apologistic slight of hand; very likely, millions of non-witches labeled as "heretics," Prostestants, Arians, Cathari, Albigensians, Jews, and others were slaughtered during these campaigns. " Both of us are only scraping the surface of the evils inflicted by those who worship the Christian God. Your examples are horrific in themselves. We might even add the fate of native North Americans and South Americans to zealous religiosity of those who abused and killed, millions. Not a single religiously motivated murder is ever justified. But if the attempt at justification is based on clearly supportive scriptures (Old Testament of the Bible) then those scriptures are immoral and unfit for children to read under age 18. Amergin

01-17-2003, 09:41 PM	#80
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	A Protestant Barbecue Well it wasn't only the Catholics. Back in the 1500s, a dude named Michael Servetus in Transylvania was writing to John Calvin. Servetus insisted on two things: that there was One God & that the Holy Spirit is in Every One of us, and Jesus was a very special man but not the Messiah; (Unitarianism) Secondly, that there was no salvation for the Elect only; that all humans were saved (Universal Salvation); Thus, he was the very first person to outline the principles of the Unitarian Church and the Universalist Church. These churches grew up in New England in the abolitionist movement of the mid-1800s. The two denominations merged in the early 1960s. Servetus made John Calvin extremely mad. So Calvin said "Come to Geneva, so we can discuss this further." This turned out to be entrapment. After Servetus got there, John Calvin burned him alive at the stake, convinced he was doing the right thing to a heretic. Today in Geneva, there is a statue of Michael Servetus, but NO statue of John Calvin. Protestant persecution of heretics may have been less in number, but I agree with Bridgid that the murder of ANY ONE by any organized religion is too many. (This is in the third episode of Cosmos): Kepler's mother was imprisoned for being a witch for telling Kepler stories when he was little, and chants about going to the moon, which is what motivated him to find out what the orbits of the planets were like and establish the laws of planetary motion that really got the Copernican/Newtonian revolution going. I guess bede either doesn't get it or ignores it consciously, the statement made at the end of Schindler's List, because it's by Jews and therefore not holy enough: Anybody remember the ring that was made by the inmates of Schindler's factory??? In the Talmud it says "He who saves one life saves the world entire; he who destroys one life destroys the world entire".

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01-17-2003, 03:34 PM	#73
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	This thread makes me sick. The fact that religion has caused ONE death--hell, the fact that religion has caused a billionth of a nanosecond of pain to anyone is absolutely unacceptable. No amount of good deeds or "it wasn't that bad" mollycoddling can ever erase the deeply entrenched bloodstains of xianity. Sincerely, Goliath

01-17-2003, 04:40 PM	#74
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	well, i for one am glad that christians tortured and killed only a few hundred thousand people. now that i know this, i am so going out to become skyfarian. logic be damned. the biggest problem is of course i will have to find someone to read the bible to me cuz i am just a poor retarded atheist. i do find it interesting that bede claims to not be justifying the torture and muder of witches, he's "just pointing out that atheists inflate the number" i think that"s a logical fallacy. lying... EDITED CUZ I AM A POOR DUMB NON-SPELLING ATHEIST

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