Freethought & Rationalism Archive

carbonite · 01-28-2003, 04:43 AM

"I prayed when I started to get severe migraines. My migraines persisted. I went to the damn doctor."

Nothing fails like prayer! :banghead:

Maybe god was too busy tending the saint's corpses.

thebeave · 01-28-2003, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
I really wish she had someone in her life who could have helped her get some medical attention, its really unfortunate. Doctors help to heal people everyday, I see nothing Satanic about someone trying to help themself by going to see a doctor...

This reminds me of last summer. My friend's mother was in a coma and the doctors said she was going to die. Well I went with my friend Heather to the hospital so she could say goodbye and her sisters were there as well. They are 3 born again Christians. They wanted to light some "healing incense" and annoint her with some oil they had gotten from someone and I was saying it was not a good idea, there was oxygen in the room so they cant be lighting things. Then the nurse came in and said there were too many of us in there so 2 at a time would be better so I wandered out to the hall and her 3 sisters came and they were telling me that it is completely unfair that they needed to pray. So I said well pray, there is a chapel down the hall or just pray here in the hallway. Then they said "no we have to pray as we put the oil on her" So I just said "I really dont think you have to do that, I believe God will hear you regardless of any oil"...
That night another friend went to visit the hospital and they said "Oh you just missed Heather and Amie, now Heather is still searching and needs some time to be with God herself but Amie is just really fucked up"
All because I said not to light the incense and the oil was not necessary to pray?! Even when it comes to praying I think some people can take things to extremes...

I am all for praying however favoring prayer and disregarding medical treatment when ones life is on the line is when belief becomes a potentially dangerous thing

I prayed when I started to get severe migraines. My migraines persisted. I went to the damn doctor.
Amie~

Please explain the theory behind topical oil applications and burning incense as remedies for pulling someone out of a coma. Or prayer for that matter. Every study I've seen shows intercessory prayer to be ineffective. This all sounds like voodoo witch doctor stuff to me...

Maybe she would have come out of her coma if you would have beat on some African drums or given her an IV with "eye of newt".

wildernesse · 01-28-2003, 07:21 AM

Annointing with oil for as part of a prayer for healing comes from James 5:14-15

Quote:

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven

Incense? I'm not sure. I don't think Amie was supporting this type of prayer. And I'm sure that studies will not change anyone's belief.

--tibac

Godless Dave · 01-28-2003, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebeave
This all sounds like voodoo witch doctor stuff to me... Maybe she would have come out of her coma if you would have beat on some African drums or given her an IV with "eye of newt".

Come on now, Beave. Banging on drums and making potions is supersitious and silly. Burning incense and anointing with oil are part of the one true faith and make perfect sense. Isn't that obvious? </sarcasm>

VonEvilstein · 01-28-2003, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beyelzu
Letting a child die because you are a fundie is child abuse. It does make me sick.

Isn't the technical term for this "manslaughter"? COuldn't some cases fall under the heading "murder"?

Let's call a spade a spade, and a parent who refuses medical aid for their dying child a murderer.

scombrid · 01-28-2003, 08:30 AM

I just discovered yesterday evening that I get PAX on UHF49. Yippie. Late last night I saw It's a Miracle.

A fireman saved a kitten. It was a miracle. How many good Christians died while god was tending to that little kitten.

Doctors resuscitated a kid after a near drowning but god got all the glory. The kid was comatose for a couple of days after revival but it was still a miracle.

Perhaps if the doctors hadn't intervened the kid would've just popped back to life with out the long drawn out recovery.

gravitybow · 01-28-2003, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scombrid
Perhaps if the doctors hadn't intervened the kid would've just popped back to life with out the long drawn out recovery.

Or gone home to heaven with a band of little angels to play carefree forever to the delight of the Lord.

God wins either way.

wildernesse · 01-28-2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VonEvilstein
Let's call a spade a spade, and a parent who refuses medical aid for their dying child a murderer.

Depends on what medical aid is--is it resuscitating a preemie under 1 lb whose organs have not developed fully and will never develop? That's a dying child--a child on the very cusp of viability, and yet I support the parents' rights to choose whether or not they want that baby to have invasive medical attention. Pain and separation in an entirely new environment is all you know of what you can understand for the few short weeks you suffer and live?

Respirators are medical aids for dying people and feeding tubes--yet often parents of children and guardians of other people make the decision to refuse medical aid for those dying people dependent on such.

Very little is black and white on this earth. I refuse to condemn all parents refusing medical treatment for their children. I think it is often irresponsible and negligent--both to their children and society in general, however, there are situations where I can accept their decisions.

--tibac

VonEvilstein · 01-28-2003, 11:35 PM

OK, I didn't have much time when writing that last utterance.

Of course there are cases where ending the suffering (as humanely as possible) is best, or cases where treatment may do more harm than good. But I belive the topic here, is parents who refuse to allow medical assitance purely on religious grounds. They are scum and deserve to die.

Amie · 01-28-2003, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scombrid
I just discovered yesterday evening that I get PAX on UHF49. Yippie. Late last night I saw It's a Miracle.

I love that show...

yeah wildy was right, I was not supporting the incense. Or even the oil for that matter, those things are not necessary for prayer...

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01-28-2003, 04:43 AM	#11
carbonite Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: US Posts: 5	"I prayed when I started to get severe migraines. My migraines persisted. I went to the damn doctor." Nothing fails like prayer! :banghead: Maybe god was too busy tending the saint's corpses.

01-28-2003, 08:30 AM	#16
scombrid Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,759	I just discovered yesterday evening that I get PAX on UHF49. Yippie. Late last night I saw It's a Miracle. A fireman saved a kitten. It was a miracle. How many good Christians died while god was tending to that little kitten. Doctors resuscitated a kid after a near drowning but god got all the glory. The kid was comatose for a couple of days after revival but it was still a miracle. Perhaps if the doctors hadn't intervened the kid would've just popped back to life with out the long drawn out recovery.

01-28-2003, 11:35 PM	#19
VonEvilstein Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: .nl Posts: 822	OK, I didn't have much time when writing that last utterance. Of course there are cases where ending the suffering (as humanely as possible) is best, or cases where treatment may do more harm than good. But I belive the topic here, is parents who refuse to allow medical assitance purely on religious grounds. They are scum and deserve to die.

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