excreationist

(This is a bit different to the other suicide threads... I'm focusing on a particular question)

A common reason why people think suicide is wrong is because it hurts the feelings of others (they'd feel guilty, etc).

But what if the person died in an "accident" or died of an illness they "accidently" got? Other people wouldn't feel like it was partly their fault (like they would during an obvious suicide). Everyone dies eventually anyway, so sooner or later people would go to your funeral - they'd be upset that you died so soon though.


Is it less or more wrong for a person to pretend they died accidently rather than have an obvious suicide (with a suicide note, etc)?

yguy

Forget right and wrong, [personal attack deleted]. You're a fool to give the idea a moment's consideration. You think you will relieve your suffering when, knowing nothing about what happens to your consciousness after death, you could just as easily be leaping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

[Edited by Grizzly to remove personal attack]

Treacle Worshipper

excreationist,
I personally think that it would certainly be easier for the survivors if they thought someone died in an accident than if they knew it was a suicide.

However, as someone who has suffered from depression and attempted suicide, I would ask you not to make a decision about this while you're feeling depressed.

You talked on your other thread as tho' you had to go out & change the world to really feel that you are making a difference. One of the things I've learnt over the last couple of years is that we can make a difference to our own lives & the lives of those around us. We don't have to change the world & make the headlines to live a good life.

TW

ManM

excreationist,
Death will still cause grief. An accident may cause less grief than a suicide, but it will still cause loved ones to suffer. If a person cares enough for his loved ones that he doesn't want them to think he committed suicide, do you not find it strange that he would still cause them grief by killing himself?

winstonjen

But if someone was in a lot of pain, wouldn't it also cause the loved ones grief to watch them suffer? If it doesn't, then, IMO, the 'loved ones' aren't very considerate or emphathetic, and their views shouldn't really be taken seriously.

excreationist

yguy:
Forget right and wrong, [personal attack deleted]. You're a fool to give the idea a moment's consideration. You think you will relieve your suffering when, knowing nothing about what happens to your consciousness after death, you could just as easily be leaping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Well if hell exists I'd probably be going there anyway due to my lack of faith in the existence of any gods.

Treacle Worshipper:
....However, as someone who has suffered from depression and attempted suicide,
Well I've never attempted suicide - partly because I hadn't found a 100% foolproof method (if guns were easily available in Australia then it wouldn't have been a problem).... it's also partly because when I'm depressed I feel like things aren't quite resolved enough (ends tied up, etc) or I'm curious about what is going to happen in the future.

I would ask you not to make a decision about this while you're feeling depressed.
Well say someone was depressed 90% of the time, and not depressed 10% of the time, throughout their whole life... if they only thought about suicide when they aren't depressed, I think it is kind of odd since it isn't based on your current emotions/feelings, just your past and potential future emotions. I'm not depressed very much but I feel like my time may be up soon - maybe in a few years or a couple decades... I want to have a fairly high quality of life. It's kind of like those euthanasia people who want to have a decent quality of life/dignity. Also, thinking that I haven't got long to live would make me make better use of my time I think, rather than waste so much time, like I'm doing now. Planning to die at say, 50, makes life seem a lot better I think... (I'm 24 - but have a lot of genetic/health problems) it would put more pressure on me to do some things while I'm still quite young.

...One of the things I've learnt over the last couple of years is that we can make a difference to our own lives & the lives of those around us. We don't have to change the world & make the headlines to live a good life....
At the moment I don't really want to be good... I just want a lot of freedom (freedom from responsibilities, etc)... in the past I wanted to improve the lives of others. (I have different approaches to life sometimes - after all, I've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder). I guess I should be more responsible....

ManM:
Death will still cause grief.
Of course.

....An accident may cause less grief than a suicide....
But is it less wrong for a suicidal person to have a carefully staged "accident" than to commit suicide in a more obvious way? Or it is more wrong to have an "accident" because it involves deception? That's what my thread's about... it's pretty morbid...

keyser_soze

First, seek some counseling. Stay on medication, and if it's not working, then find either a doctor who will modify your regimen, or get your current doctor to work on getting a good medium going.

For depression, suicide..even one that looks like an accident is a waste. Not from a religious side, but from a humanity side. Try to do something for humanity if you would cast your life away. Join the peace corps or something. If you want to give your life away, then do it for something good. Sometimes suicide is necessary, the trading of your life for a greater good is always acceptable to me. But to trade it so inexpensively is not honourable in the least. In cases of pain, or a drastic drop in quality of life, yes, again this is acceptable.

In any case, it is not a decision to make in the midst of the depression. Seek help, failing that, do something for humanity.

keyser_soze

And I think I noticed that you live in Australia. If worst comes to worst, fatal snakebites are common are they not.

ManM

excreationist,
Since I believe in the afterlife, I think it would be more harmful in the long run to deceive people. They are just going to hurt more when they find out the truth. I suppose that applies in a limited fashion to you as well. An investigation of your accident may lead the police to consider your death a suicide. I think that sincerity may be the better path in this case.

As an aside, it seems apparent that you do not fear death. If you cannot value yourself, why not give yourself completely to something greater? You will die with respect to your old way of life, however, your potential for good will live on.

Treacle Worshipper

[QUOTE]Originally posted by excreationist
Well I've never attempted suicide - partly because I hadn't found a 100% foolproof method (if guns were easily available in Australia then it wouldn't have been a problem)....
If guns were easily available in the UK, I wouldn't be talking to you, either.

it's also partly because when I'm depressed I feel like things aren't quite resolved enough (ends tied up, etc) or I'm curious about what is going to happen in the future.
Wanting to know what happens next is one of the things which keeps me going. Also thinking about all the cool things that have happened in the last 18 months, which I wouldn't have been around to experience.

Well say someone was depressed 90% of the time, and not depressed 10% of the time, throughout their whole life... if they only thought about suicide when they aren't depressed, I think it is kind of odd since it isn't based on your current emotions/feelings, just your past and potential future emotions. I'm not depressed very much but I feel like my time may be up soon - maybe in a few years or a couple decades... I want to have a fairly high quality of life. It's kind of like those euthanasia people who want to have a decent quality of life/dignity.
When you put it like that, it sounds more like a euthanasia issue. I meant, when you're not depressed, you can see how bad it really is. You might decide that you don't want to go through another period of depression, 'cos it was so horrendous & the good times don't outweigh the bad times. Or you might decide that you want to get through the depression if/when it recurs, because you enjoy the good times enough that it makes up for the bad times.

Also, thinking that I haven't got long to live would make me make better use of my time I think, rather than waste so much time, like I'm doing now. Planning to die at say, 50, makes life seem a lot better I think... (I'm 24 - but have a lot of genetic/health problems) it would put more pressure on me to do some things while I'm still quite young.
Life is short, and we don't have much time. Trying to end it made me realise that we have to go out & do what we want to do. Nobody else is going to hand stuff to us; if we want something, we have to make it happen. (I am also 24, and over the last year my mobility has decreased until I now use a wheelchair. Oddly, this has made me more determined to get out & do stuff, because it's more of a struggle. I'm just strange.)

At the moment I don't really want to be good... I just want a lot of freedom (freedom from responsibilities, etc)...
I didn't mean "morally" good, I meant enjoyable. I don't know how much personal responsibility you have, but if you are single & have some money, you can go pretty much anywhere & do pretty much anything. (Money sometimes has to be aquired by working for six months of the year, unfortunately.)

in the past I wanted to improve the lives of others. (I have different approaches to life sometimes - after all, I've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder).
That's what I thought you meant. You don't have to change people's lives on a world scale. You can change your friends' (& family's) lives for the better by being who you are.

I guess I should be more responsible....
Depends how you mean that. I strongly believe we need to take responsibility for ourselves. It is impossible to take responsibility for other adults. And we shouldn't take on responsibility that we can't handle - and it's not irresponsible or letting others down to turn them down.
Anyway, I will stop rambling now...
TW