jaz

That's a good point. I would imagine in such cases that the focus should still be on the counselling. In this case, it is obviously a fault with the mind, rather than with the body. I would still feel that the action is wrong, but until we find a way to "fix" the mind, I certainly understand why the patient and their doctors would feel that procedure was the best course of action.

Our gender is a major part of who we are. If you change that, you do change who you are. That's unavoidable. Changing your gender will also bring out aspects of your character that some in the familial or social setting might not have been aware of earlier, and which they may not wish to be associated with. It also brings into play behaviour which might not be considered appropriate. All affect interaction between different people. The characteristics might not have changed, but some would certainly become more visible. I'm not really sure why you are bringing this up though?

No, but I'm not expecting that of transexuals either. I disapprove of the behaviour, but I fully support their rights. They aren't harming anyone in any sense that we can legislate against.

I consider it a mistake to have the corrective surgery. Simply because I don't see it as a physical problem. Again, why fix it if it's not broken? I do however think there is a problem there. Obviously transexuals don't make a choice to be transexual. But, that doesn't mean the brain isn't playing up. I think that the correct path is to find a way to correct the problem.

I assume you are talking about the websites. I will have a look at them when I have a minute. I am always open to having my opinions challenged. If I am wrong, I want to know.

Your points about the mind and body been much more complex than previously thought are part of the reason I don't oppose transexuals all together. At the moment I have a hard time accepting that sex is also determined by the mind, separate to the body and that we just have to hope they both correspond to eachother.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: jaz ]</p>

jaz

I've been waiting for this.

Basically, I see homosexuality in quite a different light to transexuality. And you are right in that it is an odd view for a lesbian to hold. Most gays who are aware of my opinion don't understand me at all.

I feel obligued to say that a lot of people disagree that homosexuality is a result of a mistake by nature, but just one of a variety of sexuality options available to nature. It's (apparently) no more unnatural than heterosexuality, but simply occurs in a smaller extent. Many gays bring out examples of gay animals (I've heard of penguins, elephants, wolfs and a variety of others) to support this claim.

I don't know what causes homosexuality. Perhaps it is a mistake by nature or perhaps it is natural. Obviously if it isn't a mistake, but a natural option then it can't IMHO be argued that it is morally wrong and you don't really have a point.

If you are right though, and it is a mistake by nature, I still see it as quite differently to transexuality. Having relationships with other woman is a result of the mistake. It's not a misplaced correction. Just as stopping all gay behaviour isn't going to fix the problem. I have to admit here though that I am not 100% fixed in my opinion of my sexuality. I'm still deciding what I think so I fluctuate a little bit. A while ago I would have said that it is 100% morally unacceptable.

As for sex change operations, I do think that there is a fault somewhere. Either it's with the persons gender, or with their mind. Personally, I think the problem is with the mind. By having a sexchange operation, you are treating the effects of the problem and not treating the problem. I think that is the wrong course of action. The problem, the mind, should be treated. Choosing not to treat a problem is a questionable behaviour IMHO. It's simply the wrong behaviour, and one I don't approve of.

jaz

In the case of hermaphrodites, I don't see it as wrong to choose a sex to stick with. Obviously a mistake has been made there physically, and as a result a physical solution is necessary.

Philosoft

If I may offer a simplistic scenario:
The situation with transsexuals appears to be a disconnect between gender identity, presumably housed somewhere in the brain, and physical sex. The cause of this disconnect is not known. It might be malfunctioning hormonal regulation during development. It might be a recessive gene. Either way, what we don't know is what anomalous changes the brain has undergone, if any, to create the disconnect.

That being the case, I don't see how it is preferable to treat the "mind," as you put it, rather than the body? Is a gender-identity disconnect even treatable by psychological means? Unclear. What we do know is that sex-change operations are a certain solution to some of the body-identity problems. Obviously, they're not for everyone, but apparently they are for some. I don't think it's up to any of us to determine what is the "best" way to "treat" transexualism, especially at this point.

brighid

Jaz,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I agree that gender plays a large part of whom we are, but I think it is a mistake to allow gender to be THEE defining factor of any person’s character. I am a woman, but in many ways I am uncharacteristically male in many of my thoughts and behaviors. I am more aggressive then the average female, I would even say that I have a stronger libido then many women I know, I am very competitive, and I exhibit some other “male” characteristics. I don’t think those traditionally male behaviors make me any less a woman, although I have come up against some serious prejudice and back lash for not adhering to a more traditionally defined “female” role. How much would I personally change if I were in the position of having gender issues? I am not sure and I don’t know how hormone therapy would affect the more typical “female” characteristics in my genetic make-up. It is conceivable that I may feel less empathy, more aggression, or other things potentially affected by an increase in testosterone. But would I change or would I simply, and finally be able fully express who I am – if I were in such a position?

I do not know how one is actually able to separate the mental aspects of sexuality from the bodily construction. Isn’t the brain the most important sexual organ? Your body, as a woman is “designed” to have sexual intercourse with a man in order to further the species. You are “made” to have sexual intercourse with a man, but men cannot arouse you as women do. Is this not mental, and perhaps also physical in the bio-chemical sense but most directly related to your mind and not the construction of your sexual organs OR your gender? In this respect aren’t you “broken” because your mind is unable to accept the male body as your sexual partner (even though sex with a woman is pleasurable)? Perhaps this is why some gay men are more effeminate then others and some gay women are more masculine.

Why should it be any different in the case of the transsexual? The transsexual is born with functional sexual organs (but in some cases this is not true, and perhaps were assigned a gender at birth and had genitalia constructed to fit that gender) BUT mentally has the hormonal structure of the female brain.

We don’t know enough about the brain to pass judgment and state that something isn’t broke and should not be fixed. We do have A LOT of information that demonstrates the very complex role the actual physical development of the brain has to the body and a person’s ability to function. We can look at how the brain operates in a schizophrenic as compared to a “normal” person to understand where and why they hallucinate, etc.

I think we cannot discount the important point our gender does play and how physical appearance relates to self-confidence, mental health and therefore physical health. All of these things are interconnected. Perhaps you can remember back to a time when you struggled with your sexuality and the role that has to your gender and your role in society. I don’t know what it feels like to be homosexual, but I know enough people who are homosexual to be able to have an empathetic idea of that struggle. Imagine that with the inescapable feeling that your body does not belong to your mind. How do you align yourself with what goes on in your brain? Could you, as a homosexual woman pretend to be something that you are not because your mind and body are in a struggle against one another? Obviously, your body was made to mate with a male but your mind and your mental attraction are at odds with that body even if your genitalia is functional reproductively and recreationally. Could you love a man the way you love a woman and is it your genitalia that controls that or your mind?

Perhaps because you are homosexual you feel that perhaps transsexuals simply want to change their gender in order to be “straight” physically so they do not have to endure the ridicule, cruelty and discrimination homosexuals endure. Is this the underlying premise for your “if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it” theory?

I think that premise is valid in certain cases, but that each transsexual should be evaluated on an individual basis without passing judgment as to the totality of moral implications that surround this issue. Until a person undergoes such a transformation it cannot be accurately speculated what actual aspects of his/her personality will and won’t be affected. Long before the physical reassignment surgeries take place the proper hormonal necessities are introduced into the body in a gradual process. The hormonal construction will affect his/her personality and character far more then the actual reconstruction of genitalia even if the surgeries make the change go from ambiguous to unmistakable. Shouldn’t you wait and see how this person actually changes before passing judgment of the value of his/her character and actions? Perhaps nothing of behavioral significance will take place. Perhaps this person will grow into a happier, well adjusted individual now that the mind and body have been aligned into one congruent being and this will in turn strengthen the positive characteristics he/she possesses in the “broken” form? Isn’t this highly probable?

What exactly are the changing and objectionable character issues you see taking shape upon the completion of a physical transformation?

Brighid

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

Glory

Excuse me, but did you not say that nature does not make mistakes?

Glory

jaz

No, I did not. Please go re read my earlier posts.

Such a stance is clearly wrong.

Edited to add:

brighid: I'll reply to your post tomorrow, or rather later today. After I get some sleep.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: jaz ]</p>

jlowder

I'm afraid I don't understand your point at all. If transsexuality were a "mistake of nature," why would it follow that a sex change operation is "a misplaced correction." If a transsexual feels or knows deep down that they were born into the wrong sex, why would a sex change operation be a misplaced correction? Surgery would only be a misplaced correction if more effective non-surgical methods were available. Are there more effective non-surgical methods? I find it hard to believe that the medical establishment would even offer surgery as an option if non-surgical methods were more effective.

But suppose for the sake of argument that more effective non-surgical methods do exist. Why would it follow that transsexualism is morally unacceptable? Is there a moral obligation to avoid getting less effective treatments for a problem? I'm not so sure about that. And if a person were to get surgery (despite the fact--if it is a fact--that more effective non-surgical methods were available), why would that be a reason to avoid such a person in your personal life? I don't understand your reasoning.

Is there any evidence that psychological or psychiatric treatments are effective in this case?

Jeffery Jay Lowder

Glory

Pardon me. You don't think nature makes these kinds of mistakes. What kind of mistake is this? How do you classify this kind of mistake as different from any other kind?

Lets assume that you are correct that a mind problem should be treatedly psychologically rather than physically. Why do you think that this is a mental issue? The mind is a manifestation of phsyical phenomenon. To attempt to seperate the mind from the body is fruitless. They are inextricably connected. I submit that you cannot treat one without treating or affecting the other. Why should psychiatry or psychology be the default when the physical body will be affected?

Glory

CuriosityKills

I remember when my mother told my sister and I that Divine was really a man. We were pretty young (probably 6 & 9 years old). We had seen his music video on T.V. and thought he was awesome.

Anyway, we had never heard of anything like this before and it was pretty exciting. Mom just told us that some men feel more comfortable in women's clothes. We understood, he wanted to be pretty and feel feminine. We too, wanted to be pretty and feel feminine. there wasn't anything wrong with this in our eyes.

A short time later when walking by a pond where ducks were swimming, my mother pointed out two male ducks swimming together. This was our introduction to homosexuality. Again, she just brought this to our attention as a simple fact of life. Again, we weren't confused. We asked the questions we had and she answered them candidly.

I am grateful to my mother for giving me unbiased information and allowing me to think freely.

Kids are going to come into contact with people of all lifestyles, religions, philosophies eventually. It is impossible to shelter them for an entire lifetime. So why even try?