Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EstherRose · 07-03-2003, 04:56 PM

Here is some information I found out about George Lamsa who "translated" the Aramaic bible River is touting.

Quote:

The most disturbing feature of the Lamsa Bible is that he often allows his theology and opinions to dictate his renderings. For example, he does not believe that people personally live after death, so he inserts the word "death" in places the writer used "sleep" (1 Cor. 15:6,18,20). Most passages which refer to the Trinity and Christ's deity are left intact, but Lamsa changes the wording of John 1:18, Acts 20:28, Micah 5:2, and Hebrews 7:3 because they contradict his Nestorian presuppositions. His anti-Greek bias shows as he repeatedly replaces references to "Greeks" with "Arameans."

Apparently, given where he was born and raised, he despises Greeks and refuses to have anything to do with even the Greek language. His supposed translation of the bible is based too on his personal beliefs instead of true translation from the written words and language structure. He felt free to change the words where he felt it didn't coincide with his unbiblical beliefs.

The website refuting the New Age translation of the bible according to George Lamsa. Link here

Spaz · 07-03-2003, 05:02 PM

AFAIK the word muslim means "one who submits to god" or something along those lines (I googled it

). So wtf difference does it make? I mean really you're just arguing semantics here, who cares?

Doctor X · 07-03-2003, 05:20 PM

Esther:

Interesting in that he recapitulates the "tried and true" methods of translation--"interpret according to your beliefs!"

I was going to joke that I found a greater connection between "Christ" and "Krisna"--LOOK AT HOW CLOSE THEY ARE!!! [!--Ed.] Your revelation that he replaces "Greek" with "Aramean" reminds me of a cult that replaced "Christ" with "Krisna" in all of their Bibles!

--J.D.

Taamalus · 07-03-2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by River
River says,

Jesus Christ is the metaphorical son of G-d . The Qur'an portrays him as the second Adam. The name Isa ( Jesus) appears 25x in the Qur'an. The name Adam also appears 25x in the Qur'an. The Talmud and other Jewish Scriptures also call Adam, Noah , David and other Prophets " Sons of G-d". Jesus Christ is not Equal to G-d. He is G-d's representative. And the Qur'an gives him the title " Spirit of G-d" as well as " Word of G-d". Therefore if you follow Jesus Christ , you are also following G-d. No contradictions.

River says,

I am not a Paul fan. Most Muslims believe that Paul was largely responsible for corrupting Christianity . He allowed for the worship of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was the most Humble Servant of G-d. He does not need nor want our worship.

P.S: The site theNazareneway.com is an excellent website. You may deem it as unorthodox....but this is expected from a website that endorses Apochrypha. Most Christians have a faulty perception that Apochrypha is fake.....but in reality ...it is not. [/B]

So noted.

However you make some strong statements. More pennies from me

Yes, Islam (Koran) accepts Jesus as a prophet. If he was a prophet who claimed to be the Son of God I am contradicting myself accepting him only as another prophet, or as the Son of Man, which has a different meaning for Christians.

Your second assertion; (about Paul). - Paul did not ask the followers of Christ to worship Christ. Christians have been asked by Paul to accept Christ's sacrifice. Christians do not pray to Christ. Christians define the Trinity as their god and worship such. (Save confused Christians like the JWs) They pray to the Father through the Son.

p.s. yes this is a good side.

Taamalus · 07-03-2003, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chimaira
There appear to be a sizable number of Christians who when reading this verse interpret it to state that Jesus is God and that no one shall enter into heaven except if they worship Jesus. For this reason this verse should ideally be dealt with in section 1.2.3 (The 'Son of God'), however, since it is brought up so often in discussions of the Trinity it appears to be appropriate to discuss it here.

* Cut; but I am responding to the content * --

May I just ask how you incorporate verse 7 (NIV)
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Here Jesus states a mystery. He tells his disciples to have seen the father and know the father. If Christ was not trinity, how do you explain his statement?

Verse 10 (NIV)
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

I don't think anyone can show Christ conforms to Mohamed's teaching using the Holy Bible.

River · 07-04-2003, 05:25 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magus55
[B]Guess you aren't a big fan of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John either, since they clearly point out that Jesus is in fact God.

-------------
River says:
No it is not clear that Jesus is G-d going by those 4 Gospels.

John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.

Definately a higher claim then just being a humble servant.

-------------
River says:
No not true, Jesus Christ said something like " the meek shall inherit the Earth.

River · 07-04-2003, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
Here is the verse in Hebrew according to my bible websites. Not one of these words say "muslim". Perhaps the translation of the bible you (and the website) are using is incorrect. If anyone reads Hebrew, can they read this verse and the verse on his website and offer anything?

��

In English
Luke 6:40
"A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

The meaning is altered too in your "translation".

a muslim by definition is someone who submits willingly (voluntarily ) or unwillingly ( involuntarily) to the Will of G-d?

Are you not a muslim?

Magus55 · 07-04-2003, 06:11 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by River
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Guess you aren't a big fan of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John either, since they clearly point out that Jesus is in fact God.

-------------
River says:
No it is not clear that Jesus is G-d going by those 4 Gospels.

You most certaintly can.

I and the father are one, He who has seen me, has seen my Father, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Jesus made it quite clear He was the same as God.

Doctor X · 07-04-2003, 11:06 PM

Indeed, all three Synoptics and John are quite clear on the divinity of Junior. They are also equally clear that the disciples have not clue about this!

Again, one can try to torture a text to say anything, even if it does not.

--J.D.

EstherRose · 07-05-2003, 01:57 AM

River your Koran has told you to trust the bible of the Christians. The bible tells us Jesus is the son of God and not a prophet. Jesus preached the beatitudes of which

Matthew 5
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

Is a part. However Jesus also said

John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Your Koran says to believe the bible. Therefore you must believe this. Jesus said much more as well. Jesus told us He is the Son of God in John 3:16 and in John 10:30. Jesus told us what to do in Matthew 28:18-20. He taught us how to pray in Luke 11:1-2. He told us He would send the Holy Spirit as Counselor (not Mohammed). To obey the Koran is to believe this.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10
30I and the Father are one."

Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Luke 11
1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" 'Father,
hallowed be your name,

John 5
23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6
46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

John 14
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

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07-03-2003, 05:02 PM	#12
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	AFAIK the word muslim means "one who submits to god" or something along those lines (I googled it ). So wtf difference does it make? I mean really you're just arguing semantics here, who cares?

07-03-2003, 05:20 PM	#13
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Esther: Interesting in that he recapitulates the "tried and true" methods of translation--"interpret according to your beliefs!" I was going to joke that I found a greater connection between "Christ" and "Krisna"--LOOK AT HOW CLOSE THEY ARE!!! [!--Ed.] Your revelation that he replaces "Greek" with "Aramean" reminds me of a cult that replaced "Christ" with "Krisna" in all of their Bibles! --J.D.

07-04-2003, 05:25 PM	#16
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magus55 [B]Guess you aren't a big fan of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John either, since they clearly point out that Jesus is in fact God. ------------- River says: No it is not clear that Jesus is G-d going by those 4 Gospels. John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me. Definately a higher claim then just being a humble servant. ------------- River says: No not true, Jesus Christ said something like " the meek shall inherit the Earth.

07-04-2003, 11:06 PM	#19
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Indeed, all three Synoptics and John are quite clear on the divinity of Junior. They are also equally clear that the disciples have not clue about this! Again, one can try to torture a text to say anything, even if it does not. --J.D.

07-05-2003, 01:57 AM	#20
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	River your Koran has told you to trust the bible of the Christians. The bible tells us Jesus is the son of God and not a prophet. Jesus preached the beatitudes of which Matthew 5 5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Is a part. However Jesus also said John 14 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Your Koran says to believe the bible. Therefore you must believe this. Jesus said much more as well. Jesus told us He is the Son of God in John 3:16 and in John 10:30. Jesus told us what to do in Matthew 28:18-20. He taught us how to pray in Luke 11:1-2. He told us He would send the Holy Spirit as Counselor (not Mohammed). To obey the Koran is to believe this. John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 10 30I and the Father are one." Matthew 28 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Luke 11 1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples." 2He said to them, "When you pray, say: " 'Father, hallowed be your name, John 5 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. 24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. John 6 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. John 14 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

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